The Baha'i Faith

[Muslim Atheism]

As for the self discovery system, do you mean independent investigation of truth? If so, that's just read the Writings, pray, think, decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

If you mean something more mystical, it is to follow the commands of Baha'u'llah, pray, meditate, and serve mankind. As you do this, the Oneness (as you summarize it) becomes clear.

I just wonder what he says and his experience about journey of the soul. . .

as for me, this is how I see it. . .

Desire
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Mind
(conscious and subconscious)
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- - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - -
|
Heart
|
Soul

[Whateverist]

Hopefully I provided satisfactory answers to your questions.

Pickup_shonuff, I'm going to have to answer your questions later. I'm about to meet up with a friend for the USA vs Germany match today.

Very much so. Now no more questions for you until you've watched your soccer match AND caught up on your sleep. Let me know when these conditions have been met.

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As for the self discovery system, do you mean independent investigation of truth? If so, that's just read the Writings, pray, think, decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

If you mean something more mystical, it is to follow the commands of Baha'u'llah, pray, meditate, and serve mankind. As you do this, the Oneness (as you summarize it) becomes clear.

I just wonder what he says and his experience about journey of the soul. . .

as for me, this is how I see it. . .

Nafs
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Mind
(conscious and subconscious)
|
- - - + - - -
|
Heart
|
Soul

I'm wondering what are "Nafs"?

[FatAndFaithless]

As for the self discovery system, do you mean independent investigation of truth? If so, that's just read the Writings, pray, think, decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

If you mean something more mystical, it is to follow the commands of Baha'u'llah, pray, meditate, and serve mankind. As you do this, the Oneness (as you summarize it) becomes clear.

I just wonder what he says and his experience about journey of the soul. . .

as for me, this is how I see it. . .

Desire
|
Mind
(conscious and subconscious)
|
- - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - -
|
Heart
|
Soul

Another swirling soup of meaningless words cobbled into a nice little diagram?


Deep, man.

[Muslim Atheism]

I'm wondering what are "Nafs"?

I've changed it. . it is desire.

[Marsellus Wallace]

Fuck all ya , i'm making my own religion, its all about fucking with people for whatever reason .
I call it "whatever", I already have a whateverist on board.

Whateverist, show 'm who's the man .

[vodkafan]

I googled it and read up. Although less harmful than some religions , it still ostracises gay people in practice so that kind of negates it's aim of celebrating diversity of humans. And you have still got a God in there.

[zanOTK]

Service to people is wonderful and I admire that. Service to faith? Sounds potentially dangerous (not in your case but) for others who interpret "faith" to mean something entirely different and abhorrent--which is so easily accomplished when you're not basing your ideas in rational thought informed by empirical evidence.

Service to THE Faith, not to faith. Service to the Baha'i Faith is things like teaching a children's class, or running a Junior Youth group (I'm doing this right now), or tutoring a study circle, or teaching the Faith to those that want to become Baha'is.

Whoa, you're "not allowed"? You mean "it's discouraged"? You "choose not to"? Not allowed? What happens if you do? Do you not think there can be great personal benefits in secluding yourself from others every now and then?

Monasticism is forbidden by the laws of the Faith. Now, if you just want to get the hell away from people for a while, that's perfectly fine. Even Baha'u'llah did that. But there's a difference between that and separating yourself from society and becoming a monk. We are expected to be out in society, serving, raising families, living lives and contributing to society. We can't do that in a monastery.

This can't seriously be your standard for evaluating claims to truth, can it?

Wow, I really should have gone into more detail on this one. My apologies. As I said, I was working on zero sleep when I wrote that. Let me explain. So, the reason I am a Baha'i is because I believe that Baha'u'llah was telling the truth when He said He was the Promised One, I believe He was telling the truth about God, I believe He was telling the truth about everything He said. No, my standard for evaluating claims of truth are not "I feel like it's true." Although, I do often find my gut feeling is correct. But I don't trust it without further investigation. The problem with religion is, you simply can't judge it the same way you would other things. Because it deals with the spiritual, not the physical. So how exactly was I going to decide what religion, if any, was right? I came up with this: I would spend a period (it was different from religion to religion) totally immersed in the religious life of the religion I was investigating (or as immersed as I could be. I couldn't get involved in religious communities, for the most part, because I was living in rural Arkansas at the time. Not a lot of options), and would almost obsessively read the scriptures of that religion. I did this through several sects of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and so on. I would then evaluate what effects it was having on my emotions, my family life, my social life (how it was affecting how I interacted with other individuals), etc. While I was doing this, I was also evaluating how reasonable the scriptures seemed to me, whether they encouraged practices that are simply impractical today, etc. As I did this, I found that certain religious texts produced a similar feeling in me. These were: the Bible, which I had grown up with, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Buddhist sutras. As someone who had grown up being very dedicated to the Christian religion, I think I can say I had pretty well learned the "voice" that speaks in the Bible. I hope you will forgive the un-empirical, completely spiritual evidence I'm using now. I'm afraid it's all I have. And I feel it should be enough, since I'm only discussing my personal reasons for believing, not trying to convert anyone. Anyway, back to what I was saying. I'm pretty sure I know the "voice" of Jesus in the Bible, and when I read the Bhagavad Gita and the Buddhist sutras, I "heard" the same "voice." This surprised me, since I had grown up believing that there was no connection between these religions (except Hinduism and Buddhism, but not between them and Christianity). I eventually just stopped thinking about this though, because I ended up unable to stick with either of these. For one reason or another, I wasn't satisfied. During my period of investigation, I also tried out Asatru, Wicca, and a few other pagan traditions. Because of my Native American ancestry (Cherokee through my grandfather, Choctaw through my grandmother, both on my mother's side), I also wanted to look into Native American traditional religion. But I quickly learned that they were unwilling to let somebody like me (whose ancestors didn't register with the government Although my mother THOUGHT she had found Choctaw man we were descended from that had registered, they said they couldn't find his name anywhere in their records) to take part. So that was out of the question. Pagan faiths had the benefit of giving me an increased feeling of connection to the Earth, but that was about it. After this, I basically gave up and lived as an atheist for a while. I wasn't satisfied with that either, and I didn't like the attitudes I found among a lot of atheists. Many didn't just not believe, they didn't really respect the right of others to believe. Instead, they took to insulting individuals based solely on their religious beliefs. It was at this point that I remembered some things I had read about the Baha'i Faith, and thought: what the heck, why not? It was the only one I hadn't tried out yet, so I went ahead and put it through the same process that I had put other religions through. When I started reading the Baha'i Writings I found myself having the same feeling with Baha'u'llah's words that I had with the Bible, the Buddhist sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita, even more intense than before. It was the same "voice." It was around then that I learned that Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, and I remembered the statement made by Jesus that the sheep would recognize the voice of their shepherd. It was at this time that I decided that the Baha'i Faith was true. So, there ya go. That was how I came to the decision that this was true. It's not very scientific, but it was the best I could do.

What happens after you die is irrelevant while you're alive. it's like worrying about what I'm going to eat for dinner on New Year's when I'm 65. Or do you think rewards and punishments are going to be distributed to you depending upon your actions now? What do you think happens to those outside of your faith, such as me?

Baha'is disagree with you there. We believe it is important. As for rewards and punishments, it doesn't really work that way. We believe in "nearness" and "distance" from God. Neither is a reward, or a punishment. It is just your state of being. The nearness or distance we are from God you're at when you die is the same as when you're alive, and it can also change after death. It's just a lot easier to do while alive. And someone like you, who isn't Baha'i? It depends on how you live you life. If you lived a really good life, you're probably closer to God than a Baha'i that lived a really bad life. But we believe it is easier to grow near to God if you are Baha'i. But it is certainly not impossible for someone that isn't Baha'i, or even has no belief in God (like you). I believe there's an explanation on this in Some Answered Questions (which is an English book with translations of some answers 'Abdu'l-Baha gave to various people while was traveling through the western nations). If you like, I can find the passage I'm thinking of and share it here.

I didn't mean that in a condescending manner. I didn't mean like if YOU would only read them, zan! I meant like, if anyone reads them...

And I would counter with: the fact that I have read them and still disagree with you does 'cause one to question your assertion that if anyone reads them they would be of that opinion.

Since they're all written by humans, they share the same general insecurities, hopes, dreams...but when it comes to the points that matter, the specifics, they couldn't be more different. I don't think you could disagree unless you a prior feel the need to justify the creed that all religions are One. Clearly, according to the books themselves and the majority of adherents who study them and take them seriously... they're just not.

And what are the points that matter? The specifics? Laws? Cultural myths? Names? I would say that the things that matter is what are the spiritual qualities they encourage. An example is the "Golden Rule" which is found in almost every religion. Most also encourage a highly spiritual life which focuses on God, meditative practices, love, self sacrifice, moral living, etc.

Yes but there polytheists and various monotheists who would quote their "revelation" to demonstrate your "blasphemy" in confusing the various identities of their respective Gods.

As I have been told many times. An interesting fact is that this is almost universally done when what Baha'is call a Manifestation shows up. I'll draw my examples from the Abrahamic tradition here: Jews rejected Jesus, and cited their religious texts for their reasons. Jesus, and the Christian religion, however, did not reject Judaism but rather confirmed it as being true. It is the same with Islam: Muhammad confirmed that Judaism and Christianity were true, but both Christians and Jews rejected Muhammad. Continue with the Bab. He (again) confirmed the validity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but was rejected by all three. And then when Baha'u'llah came declared His mission, He confirmed the validity of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Babi Faith. But He was rejected by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. The difference here is that most Babis accepted Him and became Baha'is, but some didn't and are today known as Bayanis or Azalis ("people of the Bayan", the Babi holy book, or "people of Azal", the religious/political leader of the Babis that rejected Baha'u'llah). They can still be found in Iran, and I think there may be some in surrounding countries. They are less than a million in number, though, so most people don't know about them unless they've researched the Baha'i Faith. I say all this just to show that the rejection by other religions of the Baha'i belief that all Faiths are of God isn't really a reason to discount it. It doesn't prove that it's true, of course, but it doesn't disprove it either.

There is absolutely no reason to think this. If there is, please tell.

In part, it's because this is part of actual Baha'i doctrine. Baha'u'llah taught that God revealed Himself in a way that was easiest to grasp to the people of that time and place each time He sent a Manifestation, and revealed a bit more about Himself with each revelation. It is also a pretty easily demonstrated fact that religious beliefs evolve within religions. Jews didn't originally believe in an evil devil, according to many scholars (I'll look this up for references if you like), and only began to believe in a Light vs Dark after Persian rule. This would be an instance of one religion influencing another. The fact that different sects exist within the same religion is another example. So, I don't feel it's that much of a stretch. That is, if you believe in a God that reveals Himself in the first place.

Yes, thank you, zan. I hope you will not take offense at my questions. I'm just trying to figure out how you think this makes much sense.

You're welcome, and don't worry. I'm not easily offended, lol.
I'll have to remind you, that this makes sense to -me- personally. I haven't tried to say that it will make sense to everyone. The fact that so many of my friends (who have heard a lot about the Baha'i Faith after they learned it was what I followed) are followers of different religions is proof that it DOESN'T make sense to everyone.

[zanOTK]

As for the self discovery system, do you mean independent investigation of truth? If so, that's just read the Writings, pray, think, decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

If you mean something more mystical, it is to follow the commands of Baha'u'llah, pray, meditate, and serve mankind. As you do this, the Oneness (as you summarize it) becomes clear.

I just wonder what he says and his experience about journey of the soul. . .

as for me, this is how I see it. . .

Desire
|
Mind
(conscious and subconscious)
|
- - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - -
|
Heart
|
Soul

Journey of the soul, huh? Well, if you mean journey of the soul to the afterlife, He doesn't talk much about that. It is believed, however, that once we pass on to the other world we are placed according to our nearness to God in life. Nearer to God you are in life, the nearer to God you will be in death. The soul then strives to move ever closer to God in the afterlife.

If, instead, you mean the soul's journey in this world, drawing nearer and nearer to God, there's a couple books you might enjoy. They're really short, and can probably both be read in a couple days. One is the Seven Valleys, and the other is the Four Valleys. They are the chief mystical texts of Baha'u'llah, and speak about the soul travelling through metaphorical valleys, or realms, which correspond to different states of being.

The Seven Valleys
The Four Valleys

Hope that helped.

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Very much so. Now no more questions for you until you've watched your soccer match AND caught up on your sleep. Let me know when these conditions have been met.

---

Hey, sorry I didn't respond earlier. Obviously, the conditions have been met! Lol! So if you've got any more questions, let 'em fly!

(I just got back from Bruno's Little Italy, so I'm in a pretty good mood. They have a fantastic veggie pizza!)

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Fuck all ya , i'm making my own religion, its all about fucking with people for whatever reason .
I call it "whatever", I already have a whateverist on board.

Whateverist, show 'm who's the man .

Have fun.

[Whateverist]

Very much so. Now no more questions for you until you've watched your soccer match AND caught up on your sleep. Let me know when these conditions have been met.

---

Hey, sorry I didn't respond earlier. Obviously, the conditions have been met! Lol! So if you've got any more questions, let 'em fly!

(I just got back from Bruno's Little Italy, so I'm in a pretty good mood. They have a fantastic veggie pizza!)

Technically, if it doesn't have pepperoni on it, can you still call it pizza?

I'm off visiting my sister and her husband in their new home in Washington state. So I can only check in briefly. IF you still feel like playing I may think of some more next week when we get back.

[zanOTK]

Hey, sorry I didn't respond earlier. Obviously, the conditions have been met! Lol! So if you've got any more questions, let 'em fly!

(I just got back from Bruno's Little Italy, so I'm in a pretty good mood. They have a fantastic veggie pizza!)

Technically, if it doesn't have pepperoni on it, can you still call it pizza?

I'm off visiting my sister and her husband in their new home in Washington state. So I can only check in briefly. IF you still feel like playing I may think of some more next week when we get back.

Technicaly, yes. Thus, sausage pizza, cheese pizza, veggie pizza, mexican pizza (if you've never tried it, do. It is amazing), etc. And since I'm a vegetarian, I always get veggie pizza or cheese. This place had the most amazing veggie pizza I'd ever had. It's a big deal to a guy that pretty much always gets stuck with the same, sub-par, veggie pizzas wherever he goes to get something that they actually put some effort into.

Hope you have a good time in Washington with your sis and her husband. I'd love to keep this up next week.