Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.

[Esquilax]

As I was watching this cool Sam Harris video:

this cool Sam Harris video

a thought occurred to me as he was discussing the double standard of christians waving away the problem of evil and suffering by appealing to god's mysterious intentions: it's not only that this excuse is unconvincing, it's also completely irrelevant. It's just a deflection to avoid talking about the real issue, because motives aren't the sole determining factor when deciding moral issues.

An insane psychopath randomly murders eight people and refuses to speak once caught: his motivations for the acts he's committed are, to the outside observer, just as inscrutable and mysterious as god's. Is he allowed to go free? Are no charges brought against him? Does the judge simply shrug and dismiss the case: "Oh, his ways are mysterious, we cannot possibly judge them!"? No. The fucker is rightly judged by the effects of his actions and thrown in prison, or at least psychiatric care.

Conversely, a man driving his car on his way to volunteer at the puppy orphanage swerves to help an old lady cross the street, and hits and kills a man in the process. This is a scenario for which the actors motivations are entirely known and, indeed, benevolent, and yet he would still be charged with manslaughter for his inattention.

Now consider a man with good intentions who didn't cause a death and, for some reason when he's in court, steadfastly refuses to comment on what was going on. He remains utterly silent, even as the evidence comes in and it becomes more and more clear, to the outside observer, that this man committed the crime. Is his silence an excuse? Good intentions or not, would you consider this a get out of jail free card for him? And could you fault the jury for using the incomplete information at their disposal to find the man guilty?

Motive may be considered as a part of a moral determination, but it's not the be all and end all that christians pretend it to be where god is concerned. Appealing to some vague, speculative ur-motivation that you just think the actor has isn't just completely irrelevant, it's also entirely ineffective even within the premises of the argument.

[Chad32]

Yeah, the mysterious ways argument is as much of a dodge as anything. It stems from the believe that Yahweh is supposed to be perfect. He's not allowed to make mistakes, so any action that would obviously be considered evil if committed by anyone else must be excused. You're misinterpreting the scriptures. he doesn't really condone slavery. Those tribes he drowned were descendents of demon/human hybrids. He doesn't throw people into hell. People choose hell. Nevermind why a lake of fire would exist as the only other place you would go if you don't worship him.

He's very mysterious, and seems more likle a failure than anything else. He continuously fails to accomplish what he has apparently set out to do, but we need to choose him anyway because he's the only option we have. Supposedly.

[Angrboda]

I don't believe the mysterious ways speaks to his motivation so much as it suggests that he has a justification for his acts which would be acceptable if known.

[Esquilax]

I don't believe the mysterious ways speaks to his motivation so much as it suggests that he has a justification for his acts which would be acceptable if known.

Hence my third example: a justification that's present but not explained is indistinguishable to a third party from one that doesn't exist, and we certainly aren't obligated to completely suspend judgment because the accused refuses to give his justification.

Especially not when, as christians who use this excuse so aptly demonstrate, it's used as an unthinking, catch-all nullification of argument, sans any kind of demonstration that such a justification even exists. If you're going to just use "mysterious ways" as an answer to every contention right away, it's not as if you're actually thinking through available evidence and coming to the conclusion that an unknown but valid justification is most likely. You're just using it to shut down dissent.

[The Grand Nudger]

Conversely, a man driving his car on his way to volunteer at the puppy orphanage swerves to help an old lady cross the street, and hits and kills a man in the process. This is a scenario for which the actors motivations are entirely known and, indeed, benevolent, and yet he would still be charged with manslaughter for his inattention.

He'd be charged with manslaughter for committing manslaughter, not for being inattentive.

It's really the same across the board "But your honor I had good intentions when I killed that man" noted - and irrelevant (as you've already commented).

You can intend to kill some douchebag all day long - and so long as you lack or fail to provide yourself with the opportunity to carry that out.....and don't make that intention known- pretty much specifically to cops or the potential victim.......you're not going to be getting a summons anytime soon. This is pretty much the camp I'd put the christian god in. If the stories are to be relied upon in the most minor of ways - the guy clearly wants us dead....but since all of his mass killings have been imaginary, apparently, his fantasies - and since I have no reason to believe that he'll ever actually possess the means to carry out his fantasies...I'd just lock his silly ass in a glass box, rather than pursuing criminal charges.

Similarly, no matter how much you may not have intended to commit a crime - the crime was still committed and you are still guilty. This is where we are if the stories are to be relied upon as absolute fact. God, good intentions and all, has condemned (quaintly, cursed) us to death from before the moment of our births due to the alleged crimes of another. We might pick through the narrative line by line, and ask about suffering - but it hardly matters. He made the threat, carried it out, and continues to maintain that position of menace - ostensibly, in perpetuity or until such a time as he decides to pull the plug on anyone else who might be left standing. He both possesses the means - and has a clear history of violence. Bailiff, get this fucker outta here.

Mysterious ways isn't just useless and irrelevant, it sets the bar lower for a god than we set for ourselves. It's insulting to both human beings and the concept of god. In it's ignorance - and it is entirely an argument from ignorance - it assaults our notions of ethics, law, and moral responsibility.

Some god, some mystery.

[SteveII]

Esquilax--are you assuming that God causes an "evil" event or allows an "evil" event? There is a big division in Christianity between these two positions.

I don't think that the position that God causes an evil event to happen is defensible logically nor an accurate interpretation of the Bible. So, your argument that the "God's mysterious intentions...is irrelevant...because motives aren't the sole determining factor when deciding moral issues", does not progress your hypothesis because then motive is not an issue.

[Chad32]

Esquilax--are you assuming that God causes an "evil" event or allows an "evil" event? There is a big division in Christianity between these two positions.

I don't think that the position that God causes an evil event to happen is defensible logically nor an accurate interpretation of the Bible. So, your argument that the "God's mysterious intentions...is irrelevant...because motives aren't the sole determining factor when deciding moral issues", does not progress your hypothesis because then motive is not an issue.

While I don't think you could be accused of first degree murder if you're standing nearby when one person murders another, you will still be accused of a crime if you do nothing while having the power to do something.

There may be a difference, but it isn't a big difference. Not that god has never caused an evil event. There are many things in the bible, directly caused by Yahweh, that most people would consider evil.

[Minimalist]

It's just another bullshit reason that apologists think they have to get their god off the hook. It is as silly as everything else they come up with, Esq.

[The Grand Nudger]

While I don't think you could be accused of first degree murder if you're standing nearby when one person murders another, you will still be accused of a crime if you do nothing while having the power to do something.

-or, more accurately - if you hand them the knife knowing damned well what they're going to do with it.

[Angrboda]

One of the common settings in which the "mysterious ways" defense is raised is in attacks on the existence of god based on the existence of evil. In such attacks, it is suggested that the existence of evil is inconsistent with the characteristics of god. But this only holds if the evil is gratuitous or unjustified. Thus, whether god's ways are mysterious does indeed matter for this argument. Additionally, in stories like Job, the mysterious ways may be asserted as a way of undermining mankind's authority to make moral pronouncements. If human kind can't justify their moral stance, god's justification of his acts is unnecessary. Again, mysterious ways matter.