Posts: 2254
Threads: 85
Joined: January 24, 2010
Reputation:
29
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 2:30 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 2:31 pm by Welsh cake.)
(July 8, 2014 at 12:16 am)SteveII Wrote: To clarify, I believe God has foreknowledge of what is going to happen--contrasted against the view that God predetermines everything (Calvinism/Reformed Doctrine). I do not think that God predetermining events is logical and is not consistent with what is revealed about the nature of God. Calvinists will tell you you're wrong.
But more importantly, why should we believe either of you?
Quote:Let's suppose that God exists.
Which one?
Quote:Do you think that a human mind could begin to comprehend a non-physical being that always existed (something that you cannot possibly wrap your head around), that has the power and intelligence to speak the unimaginable complexity of the universe into being (including time), whose mind is big enough to know all past and future events simultaneously?
You just did. Otherwise, you wouldn't be describing it to us.
Of course you can comprehend it. It is your own bloody god-concept after all. 
I can comprehend my own mental construct of a magical genie hippo that is beyond your ability to ever understand or recognize.
Does either concept make one single iota of sense? No. Because they are trying to, by definition, build up a god/genie-concept that cannot be scrutinized, investigated, examined or falsified by saying its beyond comprehension.
Its nothing more than a fallacy of untestability.
Quote:I am not trying to hide behind the "mysterious ways" argument, but you cannot demand a motive or "crimes to answer for" because it is illogical that a finite mind could hold details on an infinite number of future events--which is God's perspective.
You'll find we can, because its not unreasonable.
If your sky daddy, my genie hippo is caught doing a morally terrible act, he will be called out on it, and/or held accountable for his actions. Finite vs. infinite is totally irrelevant to the topic of committing a crime, i.e. genocide or murder.
With great power comes great responsibility remember?
Posts: 31375
Threads: 1390
Joined: March 15, 2013
Reputation:
152
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm
(July 8, 2014 at 4:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: By definition, one cannot shed one's nature and therefore logically impossible.
False.
People change all the time, and it should not be impossible for a deity that is supposedly omnipotent.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Posts: 5706
Threads: 67
Joined: June 13, 2014
Reputation:
69
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 3:45 pm
SteveII
One simple question about your view of morality. Are things moral or immoral because of some objective standard? Or are things moral or immoral because god says so?
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
Posts: 6843
Threads: 0
Joined: February 22, 2014
Reputation:
15
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 5:36 pm
(July 9, 2014 at 4:43 am)smax Wrote: I was once a believer. And before I stopped believing in God, I first started to think that he was evil. This happened while I was studying in seminary. I was doing expositional studies of several old testament books, and I was shocked at the lack of regard for human life and basic morality.
God promises his people a land flowing with milk and honey. Later it is revealed that this is someone else's fucking land, and God isn't giving it away at all, he's telling his people to conquer it and slaughter and enslave it's people.
How do you read something like this and still feel good about the morality of god? I couldn't do it, and it only got worse after that.
The God character in the Bible is simply the series of Assyrian and Babylonian Emperors who ruled the Middle East for centuries. The invisible celestial and desert mountain dwelling deities are mentioned only a couple of times in the Old Testament. The God character doing all of the yakking in the Bible was nothing but a man who had the power of life and death over his subjects, which was everyone in his empire. The Israelites/Hebrews/Jews were some of his flunkies. The God character died when the last Babylonian Emperor bit the dust with the collapse of the Babylonian Empire.
Posts: 30732
Threads: 204
Joined: July 19, 2011
Reputation:
141
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 5:48 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 5:50 pm by Jackalope.)
(July 8, 2014 at 10:20 am)SteveII Wrote: If you object to this:
1. If God exists, objective moral values exist
2. Objective moral values exist
3. Therefore God exists.
If P -> Q
Q
Therefore, P
Affirming the consequent. Invalid, unsound argument. Try again.
ETA: rasetsu already beat me to it. Of course.
Posts: 66519
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 5:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It would make a better argument for objective moral values.
1. If God exists, objective moral values exist
2. God exists
3. Therefore objective moral values exist.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go wash my hands.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 5399
Threads: 256
Joined: December 1, 2013
Reputation:
60
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 6:28 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 6:31 pm by Mudhammam.)
(July 9, 2014 at 5:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It would make a better argument for objective moral values.
1. If God exists, objective moral values exist
2. God exists
3. Therefore objective moral values exist.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go wash my hands.
Why would God's existence imply that moral values are objective? 
God could be like Yahweh, in which case he would appear to embody both qualities that human beings typically consider good and evil. But what grants him authority over what we might consider a rational ground for moral value? Because he says so? That argument appears to me to be nothing but sophistry, plain and simple.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
Posts: 66519
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 6:31 pm
No clue, it's just a premise. LOL, if it falls out of my mouth and includes god, you can be assured it's sophistry of some kind.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 11260
Threads: 61
Joined: January 5, 2013
Reputation:
123
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 9, 2014 at 7:34 pm
The problem with these "objective morals, therefore god," arguments is that the two premises are in no way linked, even if one was to demonstrate it. God's existence wouldn't have any effect on a truly objective moral framework, and if god's existence and commandments are required for these objective values, then they aren't objective, but dependent on god's subjective opinions. Steve already accepted this a while back by saying that any order god gives becomes moral, hence those morals aren't objective, they're divinely subjective, and the contingency argument falls apart.
The problem with theists making this argument about god being the only way to objective morals is that they misunderstand what objectivity is.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Posts: 3045
Threads: 14
Joined: July 7, 2014
Reputation:
14
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
July 10, 2014 at 7:49 am
(July 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: (July 8, 2014 at 4:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: By definition, one cannot shed one's nature and therefore logically impossible.
False.
People change all the time, and it should not be impossible for a deity that is supposedly omnipotent.
"People changing" doesn't change their nature. They are still human, they are still male/female, they are still cognitive beings (barring any injury), etc. Used in this context "Nature" refers to the parts that cannot be changed. The nature of God cannot change and to say that omnipotence somehow suspends the laws of logic is silly.
|
