Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.

[pocaracas]

Thousands of years? Pfffffff
Go back to school, little boy.
The Torah was written between the 5th and 2nd century B.C.... That's what you call the old testament.
The "new" testament was written between the 1st and 3rd century A.D.... where are your "thousands"?

The ignorance of these people...and the conviction with which they spout lies and falsehoods never ceases to amaze me!

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Angry with God?
About as angry as we are with Freddy Krueger. As soon as the story ends, the suspension of disbelief ends too and we understand that what's in story stays in the story... although, some people do come to have nightmares about Freddy. The mind is a tricky thing.

[Dystopia]

What the debate is still going on here?

[Esquilax]

The bible does hold hundreds of facts that can be seen and proven and tested through science, prophecies and archeology.

So I just got through saying facts are demonstrated and not asserted, and your very next response to that is an even larger assertion.

Sorry, your guess was not correct. If you have a honest opinion about God you must first believe Him.

Oh, so only people who agree with you can have legitimate opinions about god? How profoundly convenient for you! Not to mention dishonest. Can I only have opinions about Darth Vader if I believe in him too, or is this special pleading?

It feels false to you because God might be waiting for the right time to revealed you the truth or you are ignoring Him by your own free will.

I notice that instead of simply demonstrating that it is true, which you can do for any other thing in reality, you instead opt to speculate about why I think it's false. That doesn't exactly bode well, does it? Could it be that you can't demonstrate that your religion is true?

I can do that for a pack of playing cards, but you can't do that for the architect of the universe? Pretty weaksauce belief you've got there.

You may, but it just sounds like you are angry with God. And if you are not angry with God, what is the purpose of it? Hurt and disappoint other people who believes in God?

Yawn. No, I'm not angry with god. I just get irritated with poor argumentation and logical fallacies, and I feel the need to correct them. All you have to do is argue better, you know.

Hard to reply to this one because I was never implied how great I am. Your response did not have any connection with my quote.

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about god.

My opinion is only a jump start for better investigation by others. No one should put their trust on someone's opinion. Our trust should be only in God's word.

And if my investigation led me to believe that there's no good reason to think that god exists?

The bible does has the answer to everything. "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It does NOT silence any dissent only warns us about it.

It tells you not to listen to anyone who disagrees with the bible. That is silencing dissent. In fact, it tells you to kill anyone who tries to dissuade you away from god, in parts.

Let's not forget that these "semi-literate bronze age mystics" were separated by thousands of years apart, language, distance, culture, no technology or easy means of communication. Yet they were still able to compile the worlds best seller . Hum... could it be that they were very intelectual or could it be a higher power working behind them?

Thank you for your reply. I enjoyed reading your point of view. :-)

It could also be that they had a long tradition of indoctrinating children into the same belief system and violently opposing those that believed differently. That might help them raise a bunch of fearful sycophants who can't even fathom the idea of not believing, don't you think?

[alexwenzel]

There's no particular reason why a creature can't understand its creator. Do you understand your father less than other men? And if so is that because he had an hand in your creation?

A father is not the creator of his children. A father is simply regenerating, not creating.

Nope, you aren't talking about how to make the dish, but rather what it tastes like. No special knowledge is required other than to taste it, which many atheists have done.

If you have tasted it, you are acknowledging that the taste was real.

Why try to enlighten you? Because you are here and you are lacking in knowledge. The bolded parts of Proverbs say it all. The goal is not to take all hope away merely to ground you in reality.

I haven't seen nothing here that has given me hope and ground to reality. I have mostly seen individuals expressing their hate to believers. "God is the foundation of true knowledge". (Proverbs 1:7)

The necessity of inventing the devil is a consequence of inventing god. But rather than blame the devil, wouldn't it be better to take responsibility for what we do directly? That is what happens when you believe in neither god nor the devil.

God was not invented. "He is the alpha and omega". I do not blame Him or the devil for my wrong doings. I do take responsibility for my own actions only because He is real. If there was no God, then right or wrong would not be real.

There's a reason so many "misinterpret" the Bible in this way.

There are many other reasons. However God will judge only according to the light they have been given. Even if the light is very dim God sees it as the only light in the dark. "The path of the righteous is like the morning sun, shining ever brighter till the full light of day." (Proverbs 4:18)

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell. . .

Agree :-)

It's amazing to me how long ago the bible already prophesied about this very topic. "People who aren't spiritual can't receiver these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means." (1Corinthians 2:14).

Sounds much like a charlatan about to demonstrate ESP, or their ability to talk to the dead to me. It's the mark of a con-man attempting to deflect the inevitable mistrust before it begins.

The passage was not referring to talking to dead people. It was referring to God revealing the truth to those who are willing to receive them.

Especially if propped up by laws, wars, and suppressing everything that disagrees with it right? Even so much of the Bible has proved demonstrably false.

The bible has not been proved to be false. The bible can be tested and proved as I have done. People have lied about proofs that the bible is false and people receive this messages without investigating. If I was the devil that's what I would do too.

[Minimalist]

If the bible wasn't real it wouldn't have survived the test of time.

It hasn't survived. We've all seen that it is a pile of shit. We're waiting for your type to get tired of iron age superstition and join the 21st century.

[alexwenzel]

My opinion is only a jump start for better investigation by others. No one should put their trust on someone's opinion. Our trust should be only in God's word.

And if my investigation led me to believe that there's no good reason to think that god exists?

It is your own free will and I am not judging. My investigations led me to believe that there is a God so I hope you don't judge me either.

The bible does has the answer to everything. "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It does NOT silence any dissent only warns us about it.

It tells you not to listen to anyone who disagrees with the bible. That is silencing dissent. In fact, it tells you to kill anyone who tries to dissuade you away from god, in parts.

It does not force anyone not to listen. God only warns because he does not want to lose anyone. Most people accept teachings without investigating.

God does not want us to kill anyone. God asks us to love even our enemies :-)

Let's not forget that these "semi-literate bronze age mystics" were separated by thousands of years apart, language, distance, culture, no technology or easy means of communication. Yet they were still able to compile the worlds best seller . Hum... could it be that they were very intelectual or could it be a higher power working behind them?

Thank you for your reply. I enjoyed reading your point of view. :-)

It could also be that they had a long tradition of indoctrinating children into the same belief system and violently opposing those that believed differently. That might help them raise a bunch of fearful sycophants who can't even fathom the idea of not believing, don't you think?

With all the respect I really don't think it can be done that way. But it is only my opinion.

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If the bible wasn't real it wouldn't have survived the test of time.

It hasn't survived. We've all seen that it is a pile of shit. We're waiting for your type to get tired of iron age superstition and join the 21st century.

It is not a pile of ... lol You just never saw the beauty in it. Trust me, it will never go away (thank God) :-)

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Hum... could it be that they were very intelectual or could it be a higher power working behind them?

False dichotomy.

You calling it false does not make it false.

[alexwenzel]

The bible does hold hundreds of facts that can be seen and proven and tested through science, prophecies and archeology.

So I just got through saying facts are demonstrated and not asserted, and your very next response to that is an even larger assertion.

Okay my friend, here is one Scientific Fact about the Bible:

It is only very recently that scientists have discovered that the universe is stretching rather than slowing down. They are baffled, perplexed and cannot understand why this is happening. According to their theory of The Big Bang, everything should be slowing down then reversing for The Big Crunch (like a rubber band). Since they do not have an answer for it, they call this stretching force "Dark Matter". It is called "Dark Matter" because It can't be seen, measured nor explained.

However, the bible long before technology, reveled at least seven times that universe is stretching.

"The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a curtain." (Psalm 104:2)

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)

"I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens." (Isaiah 44:24)

"Now over the heads of the living beings there was something like an expanse, like the awesome gleam of crystal, spread out over their heads." (Ezekiel 1:22)

This is why scientists can't see, measured or explained the expansion of the universe. They never will because it is the hand of God. It is also pretty amazing how different prophets at different times already learned about an information that couldn't be discovered thousands and thousands of years later. hock:

Come on... you gotta respect this one :-)

Ps. There are hundreds more just like this

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I am... so tired of all the bullshit...

I hear you my friend. Many people are. The bible predicted that the end of times there would be lots of confusion, the bible calls it Babylon the Great. This confusion is not your fault. But there is hope, God will soon reveal to the entire human race the truth so people can make an informative decision. "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!" (Revelation)

Hang on in there my friend, even if you don't believe things will be clarified :-)

[LostLocke]

Since they do not have an answer for it, they call this stretching force "Dark Matter". It is called "Dark Matter" because It can't be seen, measured nor explained.

Ummm, actually, it can be "seen" and measured.

[Esquilax]

It does not force anyone not to listen. God only warns because he does not want to lose anyone. Most people accept teachings without investigating.

It's not a matter of forcing anyone to listen. The problem is that the bible weaves into its rules a number of commandments specifically discouraging believers from listening to dissenters, or investigating alternatives once they've entered the faith.

God does not want us to kill anyone. God asks us to love even our enemies :-)

Love your enemies, while you kill them, then. There's also quite a lot in there about murdering followers of other religions, too. Have you not read the bible?

With all the respect I really don't think it can be done that way. But it is only my opinion.

It literally is done that way, even today. That's why you have parents drilling this stuff into their kids' heads before they're even old enough to understand it, why you've got churches with sunday schools, why you've got christian schools and summer camps and museums and all that. It's there to lay a foundation of indoctrination into children, because you can no longer do it by violence as the people during the time of the biblical authors could.

Okay my friend, here is one Scientific Fact about the Bible:

It is only very recently that scientists have discovered that the universe is stretching rather than slowing down. They are baffled, perplexed and cannot understand why this is happening. According to their theory of The Big Bang, everything should be slowing down then reversing for The Big Crunch (like a rubber band). Since they do not have an answer for it, they call this stretching force "Dark Matter". It is called "Dark Matter" because It can't be seen, measured nor explained.

However, the bible long before technology, reveled at least seven times that universe is stretching.

"The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a curtain." (Psalm 104:2)

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)

"I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens." (Isaiah 44:24)

"Now over the heads of the living beings there was something like an expanse, like the awesome gleam of crystal, spread out over their heads." (Ezekiel 1:22)

To be short, so what? Why should I care that you can spin certain verses to mean something conveniently after science has already discovered it? We already know the bible is written in flowery, easily interpretable language that can be used to say all kinds of things. I could easily point out that in your first Isaiah quote, the earth is not a "circle," but I'm sure you'd just as easily spin it in another direction so that "circle" is defined as "not circle" in the bible. The fact that you can play little word games isn't convincing.

More importantly, if scientists discovered tomorrow that the universe isn't expanding, that their readings were wrong and the universe is shrinking, I would bet money that you wouldn't take that as a disproof of the bible. You'd just spin the words in a different way so that it confirms the complete reverse of what you claim it confirms now.

[LostLocke]

This is why scientists can't see, measured or explained the expansion of the universe. They never will because it is the hand of God

Wait.
Are you making the claim that there is something we can not and will not ever know?
What happens if, in say 5 or 50 or 500 or 5000000 years from now we do know?
Where is your god then?