Rant against anti-atheist agnostics.

[*Deidre*]

Why not redeem yourself by regretting evil done and doing your best to be a good human being? Why does a sacrifice of which only Christianity talks about is needed? Since the sacrifice is done...can't she just believe God would forgive her in his own way IF he exists. Isn't that more reasonable for a human being to do then say he can only forgive if he sacrifices a life for our sins?

If she accepts God's forgiveness but doesn't believe in him, why won't the sacrifice encompass her? The problem for her to accept a sacrifice she would have to believe in a subjective moral view, that sins can only be forgiven through that means, and she would have to accept a religion to go a long with that. Why is she being forced to accept a religion?

If it is as you say, God wants to forgive her and all she has to do is accept forgiveness, why can't God forgive her if she remains Atheist and wants to be forgiven in the chance that God does exist. Why is it necessary for her to accept a religious dogma for her to be forgiven.

God forgives her _as_ an atheist. He's not the one withholding. All she needs to do is accept it.

You seemed to add dogma back into the mix right after I'd dismissed it. I don't rule out the possibility that there are other ways to achieve fulfillment. I think the xtian bible even states that. Don't ask me where tho lol. This way is already mapped out so should be a lot easier.

Everyone should do their best to be a good human being. I believe positivity like that is acting at or maximum potential, without managing the final hurdle. What faith teaches us is that no effort we can make on our own can make us eligible to be without guilt. For that we need to bridge the gap.

---

I think atheists are well aware of our shortcomings, though Fr0d0. Not sure why believing in a deity makes me more willing to take an inventory of my shortcomings/flaws and fix them myself. I respect that if you need a god to help you with this, great. But, if you wrong another person and make amends, believe it or not...that's your choice. Imagining that god brought forth this well of moral fortitude for you to be able to make amends, is really just wishful thinking. But, I digress. haha You are a man of faith. I'm also of the opinion that a higher power may exist, but that is my emotional side speaking, not my logical side. ;=)

Well my emotional side is well in check :p

I'm not talking about this things we could fix ourselves. Maybe some people need help with that, but these are not the disabling flaws I'm on about.

You're probably a nicer person than me. You're a girl right? :p Like the answer Whateverist extracted, you wouldn't be able to tell believers apart on the street. It's a different focus. What motivates us, and our reason behind what we do. The Christian message to me is one of love and increasing peoples quality of life through love. You girls knew all this already right?

you're a very nice guy, fr0d0.
for a theist.

jk!!

[fr0d0]

A is a Christian. Person B is an Atheist.

Person A and Person B have about the same good deeds and bad deeds.

Person A feels bad about their sins. Person B also feels bad about their sins. Both regret it.

Both however feel good about what they've done as good deeds, they being far more.

How does accepting the sacrifice of Christ make a person A feel less guilty that person B?

Dang OK I'll try again.

The perspective would be very different.

B is thinking in human terms. His interactivity is with his immediate reality.

A is thinking of Gods perspective as perfect love.

What matters to B is not the same as what matters to A. What one regards as good doesn't have the scope of the other.

Good doesn't even count for anything when done for personal reasons.

Accepting the sacrifice, A acknowledges the greater perspective. Denying the sacrifice, B keeps his perspective in check.

How'd I do?

---

you're a very nice guy, fr0d0.
for a theist.

jk!!

Quit it you brazen hussie!! haha

[*Deidre*]

Quit it you brazen hussie!! haha

[The Grand Nudger]

"Bruce should sacrifice his life for my parking tickets - this is clearly immoral, and therefore acceptance of such payment is immoral."

Unless you're willing to state that this is immoral, we have no further common ground Frodo. There can be no discussion or agreement between us, because this is the point at which we diverge so wildly that we are no longer speaking the same language. The connection to you is explicit..they are your parking tickets, you have the choice of accepting such as payment.

There is no wiggle room here, Frodo...not an inch.

[The Valkyrie]

Quit it you brazen hussie!! haha

People are being brazen without me?

[fr0d0]

Like I said Rhythm, I can't see the connection with Bruce and myself. He sacrificed his life to pay for my parking ticket. If you're not falling off your chair laughing at that then I think there's something wrong with you.

I can only reiterate what I said already: I might criticise the guys own morality for killing himself. But really, that has nothing to do with me. That's between him and his god.

Happy hunting.

Oh and to conclude in your language... I'm going to chase you every time you mention this and point out your cowardly duck and dive tactics.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You're a bit of a non literalist literalist aren't you. I'm fine double guessing God. He created a perfect being where love is paramount. Love cannot exist in a vacuum, so to create this reality at all not love would have to be included.

Gods purpose for us all is to achieve fulfillment. Us torturing ourselves in hell, both present and post mortem, is God showing his love for us. If love didn't require justice then it would be worthless.

No, he created subjects upon whom he showers merciless egotism. Paul's definition of love in Corinthians, oddly enough, is a standard that his god cannot meet. The Bible itself controverts this "argument", such as it is, of yours:

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 New International Version (NIV)

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ans+13:4-8

I've emphasized the portions that conflict with a god which uses hell as a cudgel, holds souls ransom for want of bleating praise, and generally demeans humans, even to the extent of killing every single human who ever lived for the sins of Adam and Eve.

The convolutions of logic you manage in order to wall off your preconceived notions from the blade of reason are interesting to watch as they unfold. It's funny to watch you leave footprints on floor you've just painted.

Tell us what you know about reality.

Wow wierd question lol. Can you be more specific please?

You claim to be in touch with reality even as you proselytize about an imaginary being. I want to know, specifically, what makes you think you're in touch with reality, when your ideas so clearly aren't.

Show me your qualifications for making such claims as you have. Personally, you strike me as just as deluded as any other fanatic, and very normal in that regard -- no great shakes, eh? Possessed of no great insight, lurching from claim to claim trying to hold your argument together with duct-tape and chicken-wire. Tell me, what makes your views any less delusional than those of a Santeria practitioner? Or a Voodou follower? Or a Jew? Or ... ?

Tell us what you know about reality.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're being asked whether you would accept this as payment. Again, the connection to you is explicit. It only exists if you choose to accept that connection, to accept that payment. You haven't been asked whether or not it's absurd, you've been asked whether or not it is immoral. It could very well be both (I certainly think so...but guess where I would go next?).

Ill...gotten....gains.

[fr0d0]

Tell us what you know about reality.

Haha well you weren't specific at all were you lol.

Reality is talking straight. Here some reality for you: I fully accept everything concluded by science and I find nothing conflicts with my beliefs.

Your turn.

---

I guess you're not so easily shaken off Rhythm. Mouth. Trousers.

The connection to me is explicit. Some nutter topped himself for no good reason. Like I said, I think HIS action is possibly immoral. Like I said above, taking any life is seen as immoral. I don't agree, otherwise I wouldn't eat meat.

Do you think eating humans is morally acceptable? Peter Stringer the secular ethicist does. When the person is dead and there are no people that would be affected.

It only exists if I choose to accept the connection? So he doesn't kill himself if I refuse his offer? Cool. I refuse. There is no good reason for me to accept. The sacrifice outweighs the debt owed. A lesser sacrifice I might accept. Up to the extent that he gives me money to pay the debt, if I'm satisfied of his motivation. Morally, I would think it then acceptable to take the gift. Not before.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Tell us what you know about reality.

Haha well you weren't specific at all were you lol.

Reality is talking straight. Here some reality for you: I fully accept everything concluded by science and I find nothing conflicts with my beliefs.

Your turn.

Reality is not talking, at all. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred clams.

Tell me why your faith is less delusional than faith in Zeus, or Ahura Mazda, or the Great Spirit.