Why I am so passionate about speaking out against feminism.

[Jenny A]

Alpha Male,

Is it you I read saying you wouldn't listen to a video? I have similar feelings. I will summarize.

An atheist stand and refutes really stupid statements by fundamentalists and says after much nonsense that the Bible is bullshit. A moderate Christian shows up and twits the atheist for presuming to suggest that all Christians are like those extremists over there. And doesn't he know there are good rational Christians. So the atheist leaves the moderate with the fundies. The moderate buries his head in his hands.

[John V]

If you don't want to call out the crazies, that's all fine,

I should hope so, as you said that for now you're not calling them out yourself.

but don't start jumping to feminisms' defense when the rest of us do talk about the extremists.

Why not? I have three daughters and I'd like them to have fair opportunities. Isn't that what non-crazy feminism is about?

---

Alpha Male,

Is it you I read saying you wouldn't listen to a video?

Yep. In order to reply, I have to type out their argument for them, e.g. "At 2:13 the video says X." That's not happening. If someone has an argument they want me to consider they need to type it out. Also, audio/video stick out if you're browsing at work. It's less apparent to just read text. I also keep avatars and signatures turned off for that reason, plus I don't want pictures to influence my consideration of arguments.

[TaraJo]

but don't start jumping to feminisms' defense when the rest of us do talk about the extremists.

Why not? I have three daughters and I'd like them to have fair opportunities. Isn't that what non-crazy feminism is about?

If you're concerned about feminism because you want it to defend your daughters rights, that's entirely understandible. But aren't you at all concerned that the extremists are giving that movement a bad name?

And if you aren't part of "crazy feminism," why do you get so defensive when other people are talking about it?

There are intelligent, reasonable feminists and there are abrasive, crazy extremist feminists. If you're not one of the crazy ones who acts like I'm describing, relax, I'm not talking about you.

[John V]

If you're concerned about feminism because you want it to defend your daughters rights, that's entirely understandible. But aren't you at all concerned that the extremists are giving that movement a bad name?

No. As noted, most people don't hear about the extremists and/or consider them irrelevant and so ignore them.

And if you aren't part of "crazy feminism," why do you get so defensive when other people are talking about it?

I don't see that making a brief comment that OP is stereotyping qualifies as "so defensive."

There are intelligent, reasonable feminists and there are abrasive, crazy extremist feminists. If you're not one of the crazy ones who acts like I'm describing, relax, I'm not talking about you.

No need to relax as I'm not at all stressed. You're the one who seems defensive and stressed on this issue.

[TaraJo]

If you're concerned about feminism because you want it to defend your daughters rights, that's entirely understandible. But aren't you at all concerned that the extremists are giving that movement a bad name?

No. As noted, most people don't hear about the extremists and/or consider them irrelevant and so ignore them.

I don't know if I'd say people are always ignoring them anymore. The fringe feminists are making a lot of enemies and I can't help but think, they're making anti-feminists who are hostile towards feminism in general. I've even noticed this in myself: I've had so many bad experience with nut-jobs who call everything patriarchy or rape-culture that whenever I hear those words, I'm instinctivly hostile towards the speaker. It's not a conscious thing, either; it's like a knee jerk reaction and I've been watching myself lately because it's not always a good thing. But I can't help but think, if you get that same attitude into someone who's less introspective, it wouldn't be hard to turn them against the general equality that I believe in.

And feminist circles have certainly made enemies. Gamergate is currently turning gamers into their enemies with Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkesian leading the charge to label anyone who disagrees with them as misogynists. Before that, they made enemies in the tech community with Donglegate when Adria Richards got a guy fired because she was evesdropping on him. And they've spent the past few years trying to turn atheists against them with the incessant whining from (non)Freethought Blogs, Rebecca Watson and PZ Meyers. How many more groups do they have to alienate? How many potential allies do they have to chase away?

So, I can say that they don't have enough influence or power to actually change policies or laws or anything, but individuals are certainly able and willing to use what power they have to hurt people on an individual level, and annoy people on a larger scale.

And if you aren't part of "crazy feminism," why do you get so defensive when other people are talking about it?

I don't see that making a brief comment that OP is stereotyping qualifies as "so defensive."

And I'm simply saying that, no, my experience has hardly been that it's just a "stereotype." There's actually a Poe's Law of feminism: it's almost impossibe to tell an actual feminist from people satirizing feminism (I believe Thunderf00t actually pointed that out in a blog post; I'd link it if I knew where it was off the top of my head).

[John V]

I don't know if I'd say people are always ignoring them anymore. The fringe feminists are making a lot of enemies and I can't help but think, they're making anti-feminists who are hostile towards feminism in general.

Yes, that's one of the two points I had in entering this thread. OP seems to regard the fringe as being mainstream.

Within any large group there are those who take it too far, and some people who are just assholes in general. Moderates usually understand that and don't judge the group by the fringe.

[Bad Wolf]

Yes, that's one of the two points I had in entering this thread. OP seems to regard the fringe as being mainstream.

Despite me saying otherwise on several occasions.....

[TaraJo]

I don't know if I'd say people are always ignoring them anymore. The fringe feminists are making a lot of enemies and I can't help but think, they're making anti-feminists who are hostile towards feminism in general.

Yes, that's one of the two points I had in entering this thread. OP seems to regard the fringe as being mainstream.

Within any large group there are those who take it too far, and some people who are just assholes in general. Moderates usually understand that and don't judge the group by the fringe.

Kinda true. The fringe do make themselves look mainstream. I mean, it can even happen in atheist circles. I mean, think about it: who do you think is going to get more attention (especially attention for being an atheist), the atheist who just quietly disbelieves or the atheist who goes out on a street corner, telling everyone who isn't an atheist they're just a bunch of brain-dead sheep? I mean, the first one you probably won't even notice and you really won't notice that they're an atheist, but it's kinda hard to ignore the later. And when the rest of the world thinks of atheists, they get the impression of the person who does the best at drawing attention to themselves and their atheism. It's not fair, no, but it is what it is.

But I think what bothers me about moderate feminists is that it's so damn rare to see them say anything to the crazy feminists who say crazy things. And so many of them do get all defensive and bent out of shape when we do talk about the extremists. Why is it that the moderates are never concerned with the crazies in their own camp, but they get really upset by outsiders responses to those crazies?

The best example I can give, again, comes back to religion. You know religion has been one of the primary sources of homophobia, right? And it's led a lot of GLBT people to feel hostile towards religion in general, especially Christianity. And instead of getting upset and demanding that gay people acknowledge that not all churches are homophobic, there have been churches who have actually gone and done things like this:



Now, I still have no plans to ever convert to Christianity or any other mythology, but I'd say this is a damn nice gesture. It isn't taking the defensive, it's acknowledging my feelings and acknowledging what people in their group have done. Seeing similar sentiment from feminism would go a long way, but it seems to be pretty rare.

[John V]

And when the rest of the world thinks of atheists, they get the impression of the person who does the best at drawing attention to themselves and their atheism. It's not fair, no, but it is what it is.

I disagree. For example, I think that most people understand that the Muslims who are getting lots of press by beheading journalists are not representative of most Muslims. Do you think most Muslims support beheading journalists?

But I think what bothers me about moderate feminists is that it's so damn rare to see them say anything to the crazy feminists who say crazy things.

This depends on the point above. If you're correct, then I understand your frustration. If you're not, then there's no reason to expect moderates to speak out about the crazies, as it's understood that most people can distinguish the difference. I'm not waiting for a billboard by Muslims denouncing beheadings. Are you?

And so many of them do get all defensive and bent out of shape when we do talk about the extremists. Why is it that the moderates are never concerned with the crazies in their own camp, but they get really upset by outsiders responses to those crazies?

You haven't demonstrated that it's typical for moderates to get upset about outsiders' criticisms of the fringe. I don't see CHristians here getting bent out of shape about atheists' criticisms of Westboro Baptis, for example.

The best example I can give, again, comes back to religion. You know religion has been one of the primary sources of homophobia, right? And it's led a lot of GLBT people to feel hostile towards religion in general, especially Christianity. And instead of getting upset and demanding that gay people acknowledge that not all churches are homophobic, there have been churches who have actually gone and done things like this:



Now, I still have no plans to ever convert to Christianity or any other mythology, but I'd say this is a damn nice gesture. It isn't taking the defensive, it's acknowledging my feelings and acknowledging what people in their group have done. Seeing similar sentiment from feminism would go a long way, but it seems to be pretty rare.

Sorry, but I see no need for the moderates (not sure that's the case here) to apologize for the fringes. Again, I don't need a billboard to understand that moderate Muslims are against beheading journalists.

[TaraJo]

So, the discussion seems to be whether the abrasive feminists are the majority or whether the image of the abrasive feminists is the dominant image of feminists. For the first question, I'd say no, but when the abrasive ones force their camp into an us-vs-them mentality, it tends to encourage extremism in troubling ways. As for the second question, I'd say that if you're being mocked on national television, you can get an idea what image of your group is being put out there and it just so happens, feminism has that (watch the vid when you have a chance):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IfOKeZ-MWI