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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm
(October 22, 2014 at 1:51 pm)Beccs Wrote: Why is god usually credited with all the good stuff but the bad stuff is either the work of the devil or a result of man's "fall"?
That's the basic message of the bible. God created everything good, but man sinned and caused things to be bad, so we all live with the consequences of sin. Because God loved us, he decided to give us a second chance. Since we now had a sinful nature we were unable to fulfill that requirement for justice, so he sacrificed himself, in the form of his son to do that. Now we all have an eternity to look forward to on the new earth (call it heaven if you like) which will be a restoration of what he gave us in the first place, but it will be eternal. It's like "paradise lost, paradise restored."
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 4:16 pm
(October 18, 2014 at 10:47 am)sipurtov Wrote: Some Religious person would say,
Yeah but think of a child that sees a doctor cutting a man legs to save his life.
So like us the child lack of understanding the big picture.
Please give smart way to explain this comparison There is no smart way to explain that. Just roll your eyes and get away from that person in case his stupidity is contagious.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 4:21 pm
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2014 at 4:27 pm by Lek.)
(October 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm)smithers Wrote: Because then Christians would have to admit that god is not all-loving. They will claim that good will is god's will and evil will is man's will. Because our will is free from influence...
Therein lies the problem. If god is all-knowing, that means our fate is predetermined and a predetermined fate and free will CANNOT coexist. However if god gives us free will that means he is not all-knowing because we can change our minds at any point in time about any decisions we might make.
You're confusing omniscience with predestination. The fact that God knows what choices we will make, doesn't mean that he causes us to make them.
(October 22, 2014 at 4:16 pm)Tonus Wrote: There is no smart way to explain that. Just roll your eyes and get away from that person in case his stupidity is contagious.
Seems pretty simple to me. Like the child, we see God's actions and interpret them as something terrible, but the end result leads to salvation for the human race. The whole bible story leads to that final act of salvation. That's what it's all about.
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 4:46 pm
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2014 at 4:48 pm by Jenny A.)
(October 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 1:51 pm)Beccs Wrote: Why is god usually credited with all the good stuff but the bad stuff is either the work of the devil or a result of man's "fall"?
That's the basic message of the bible. God created everything good, but man sinned and caused things to be bad, so we all live with the consequences of sin. Because God loved us, he decided to give us a second chance. Since we now had a sinful nature we were unable to fulfill that requirement for justice, so he sacrificed himself, in the form of his son to do that. Now we all have an eternity to look forward to on the new earth (call it heaven if you like) which will be a restoration of what he gave us in the first place, but it will be eternal. It's like "paradise lost, paradise restored."
Man caused: famine; volcanoes, earthquakes, disease, hunger, cancer, carnivorous animals. . . Really? Maybe if I eat an apple and spit it back out?
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm
(October 22, 2014 at 4:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Lek Wrote: That's the basic message of the bible. God created everything good, but man sinned and caused things to be bad, so we all live with the consequences of sin. Because God loved us, he decided to give us a second chance. Since we now had a sinful nature we were unable to fulfill that requirement for justice, so he sacrificed himself, in the form of his son to do that. Now we all have an eternity to look forward to on the new earth (call it heaven if you like) which will be a restoration of what he gave us in the first place, but it will be eternal. It's like "paradise lost, paradise restored."
Man caused: famine; volcanoes, earthquakes, disease, hunger, cancer, carnivorous. . . Really? Maybe if I eat an apple and spit it back out?
I don't know about natural events, but viruses, etc, are supposed to be a direct consequence of our "fall".
I'm amused when it comes to "original sin" that a loving god would punish everyone for the sins of their many-generations-removed ancestors.
It would be like my great-great-great grandfather committing a murder and all of his descendants being imprisoned because of it.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 7:03 pm
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2014 at 7:04 pm by Lek.)
(October 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm)Beccs Wrote: I don't know about natural events, but viruses, etc, are supposed to be a direct consequence of our "fall".
I'm amused when it comes to "original sin" that a loving god would punish everyone for the sins of their many-generations-removed ancestors.
It would be like my great-great-great grandfather committing a murder and all of his descendants being imprisoned because of it.
We all share in the sin of Adam when we sin. If you're grandfather set off a bunch of nuclear bombs, you and everyone else would have to live with the effects of the radiation. Adam screwed up the world and now we all have to live in it.
(October 22, 2014 at 4:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Man caused: famine; volcanoes, earthquakes, disease, hunger, cancer, carnivorous animals. . . Really? Maybe if I eat an apple and spit it back out?
I tried it already. It didn't work.
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 7:19 pm
(October 22, 2014 at 7:03 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm)Beccs Wrote: I don't know about natural events, but viruses, etc, are supposed to be a direct consequence of our "fall".
I'm amused when it comes to "original sin" that a loving god would punish everyone for the sins of their many-generations-removed ancestors.
It would be like my great-great-great grandfather committing a murder and all of his descendants being imprisoned because of it.
We all share in the sin of Adam when we sin. If you're grandfather set off a bunch of nuclear bombs, you and everyone else would have to live with the effects of the radiation. Adam screwed up the world and now we all have to live in it.
(October 22, 2014 at 4:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Man caused: famine; volcanoes, earthquakes, disease, hunger, cancer, carnivorous animals. . . Really? Maybe if I eat an apple and spit it back out?
I tried it already. It didn't work.
There's a big difference between an all powerful being creating the entire universe and then placing the one thing humanity was banned from knowing smack in the middle of the garden with two curious humans and a distant relation committing war crimes.
If my great-whatever-grandfather set off nukes I wouldn't be held responsible for it.
The concept of generational punishment is absurd and cruel.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 7:23 pm
(October 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 1:22 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: And you'll credit God for that too I'd wager. Something about God's gift through science or knowledge.
Yes. Everything is a gift from God.
parasites
necrotizing fasciitis
MRSA
Alzheimer's
and so on.
You are a bozo.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 7:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2014 at 7:56 pm by Lek.)
(October 22, 2014 at 7:23 pm)Chas Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm)Lek Wrote: Yes. Everything is a gift from God.
parasites
necrotizing fasciitis
MRSA
Alzheimer's
and so on.
You are a bozo.
You're taking me out of context.
(October 22, 2014 at 7:19 pm)Beccs Wrote: If my great-whatever-grandfather set off nukes I wouldn't be held responsible for it.
The concept of generational punishment is absurd and cruel.
But, like I said, when we sin we share in the sin of Adam. If you're grandfather set off nukes, you'd have to live with consequences of that act. If you, in turn, set off a nuke, then you would also be guilty of your same act.
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RE: How to argue against this claim
October 22, 2014 at 7:35 pm
(October 22, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 22, 2014 at 7:23 pm)Chas Wrote: parasites
necrotizing fasciitis
MRSA
Alzheimer's
and so on.
You are a bozo.
You're taking me out of context.
Right. You have a contextual meaning of "everything"?
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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