The End of the World

[The Valkyrie]

You haven't read all my post, just because I do not believe evolution doesn't mean I do not appreciate real science.

You may as well disparage all science if your reject evolution. You're denying chemistry, geology, paleontology, and biology.

Yet you'll still go to the doctor when you get ill.

I couldn't do my job without biology and, therefore, evolution.

[Godscreated]

Your correct, however there are things in scripture that point to what I have said, or something close to the same. Hell is described as a place of darkness, that could be translated in different ways though.
I have no problem with how people react to their tormentors ie. tortures as you call them. In what I stated those in hell are there own tormentors, and they have to react to themselves and that is how I see people reacting to themselves. You're trying to interpret what I said in a way to use it to your way of thinking, take it and argue it as it is, please.

So you've got your own personal idea of hell based on your guesses and interpretations, and present it as fact. That's not worth arguing with.

I did not post it as fact as you said, I stated I could be wrong and would accept the literal given in scripture. You are a liar sir, either that or you can not understand English.

In what I shared God is not responsible for their suffering, they are and they realize it. So who do they beg to for forgiveness, themselves, what good is that.

They beg for forgiveness from God. You just said they realize their situation, they know why they're there, how can they not know who to ask for forgiveness from?

Which is it beg or ask, there's a difference. They understand they are there because of what they did and they know forgiveness is not coming, because they did not do it in this life.

And if you permit someone to suffer when you could easily prevent it, you bear some of the responsibility for that suffering.

God can't do anything about it, if He were to forgive them it would make Him a liar. He said no forgiveness after the death of the body, He would be unjust if He were to change what He said, especially just so you can have your cake and eat it to.

You can agree it's just and not lift a finger, but you can't honestly take the position that you have nothing to do with it. It's like building a miserable prison, deciding who gets put in it, and saying the conditions there aren't your fault. That's bullshit.

What have I got to do with it, I chose Christ as my savior and I have more than one reason. I nor God decided who goes to hell, those who find themselves there will understand they put themselves there, it was their decision, they chose to be separated from God, that only leaves on place to be. Sorry you are having such a hard time understanding what has been given in a clear manner.

Don't you think that the mental and physical stresses of hate, terror and horror as I described them would be worse than fire and brimstone.

Not even close. Being burned alive forever as is commonly depicted by fundamentalists is far worse than emotional pain. I wouldn't hesitate to choose that over physical torture. If you think you would choose otherwise, compare how long you can handle being terrified with how long you can handle holding your hand in a fire.

Okay, but I disagree.

And if I'm only punished with the hate, terror, and horror I bring with me, I'm living with that fine now, perhaps because I'm just not carrying much of that kind of baggage. I'm an easily contented guy.

Those things will come from the heart because of the understanding of what it means to live a life against God. The separation from God will bring more pain that fire, there will be a understanding of what was actually given up.

As I said in my earlier post God can't go against justice, the justice of an all knowing God.

And how did you come to be the prophet of what an all knowing God's justice will be?

A prophet of God will foretell what God tells Him, it would be a coming event. What I said in the above bold is in the scriptures, don't need to be a prophet to find the answer. You seem very much on edge.

What lurkers, I'm unsure what you mean?

People who read without commenting, sometimes without even joining. Our 'through-traffic'. I take them as much more likely to be 'on the fence' than commentors.

Okay, but lurkers sound like they are somewhat less than those who participate.

Unable, yes. He want forsake His own word, He's true to what He says, they have an opportunity while they are alive, and that's how it is, like it or not.

And you're the arbiter of what God promised?

No, just telling you what the scriptures say, if you would at least read and study them you wouldn't have to ask so many simple questions.

A Universalist would disagree, with plenty of verses to back up what THEY think God promised: that the world would be saved through Christ, that all of the nations and families would be blessed by the descendants of Abraham, that God's anger has an end and his mercy does not.

We'll see one day who sought the truth from scripture no matter what they say, to sugar coat the truth does no one justice.

With the Hindu's you could wind up a worm forever, fish bait, that's a bad deal in anyone's book, except for the fish that is.

One would have to be an awfully bad worm to be reincarnated as one over and over, for eternity. In reincarnation, though you may take a step back for every two steps forward, everyone eventually attains enlightenment, though it might take millions of incarnations.

That's not an assurance. Once a worm is eaten and pooped out he would have to be considered a bad worm for not learning to survive.

It's God's creation and his right to do with it as He with his omniscience sees fit.

So God has no morality, he can do whatever he wants because might makes right, and he's the mightiest?

I did not say that and you know that, we've been through this before, your argument is boiling down to nothing more than the same old atheist cliches.

If whatever God can possibly do is right by definition, then he is beyond morality and it makes no sense to say he's good or evil.

That's why we call him God, we do not have to describe who He is, it goes without saying, it is a given that He is perfect, without flaw.

I've explained to you so many times that unforgiven sin is eternal, not finite, so eternal justice is only fair.

Claiming is not the same thing as explaining.

More atheist cliche, I'm beginning to get bored with this.

The reason you believe what you wrote is because those who reject God's truth see things that way, so yes God's helping me, that's why you hate what I say, Christ told His disciples that this would be the reaction of those who hate Him.

Hate's a strong word. Shaking my head in pity comes closer.

Yes it is, yet Christ said, people would and I find it fits some here, if you can't see that you need to open your eyes. You do not need to pity me I have chosen what I want and am satisfied with my decision.

Only someone who's compassion is hobbled could not see how despicable some of your claims are. I have a strong feeling that if there is a God, he's got more of a beef with you than most of the other people here,

You should give specifics, how am I suppose to defend what you consider despicable, am I to guess and give you another opportunity to ridicule me. How is it you see my compassion hobbled, by what means.
I'm sure God has disappointments with me, I'm not perfect as you seem to think you are, that's called self righteousness and holds no water with God. So I would rather have God upset with me than to have Him to give up on me.

if so, I hope he's more merciful than you think, for your sake.

I sir will live in an eternal paradise, mercy is what I received when I accepted Christ as my savior, I have no worries, it seems though you might, at least your language hints to a nervousness.

Not hardly, I know He exists and guess what, because I do gives you no excuse not to know, God will tell all that who reject Christ.

You think you know he exists.

No, I know He exists, sorry you have a problem with that, the truth is what it is and I know.

There's a Yoruban witch doctor somewhere just as sure that Chango exists. A Hindu within driving distance of you happy to tell you if you ask that she knows Ganesh is real. You don't have what they don't have: a good reason to think they're right.

Care to prove that info, or is this another one of those atheist cliches that holds no water with me. I know there dreams are just that, why, because I know God is real with no doubts and, He's said there is no other gods that exist.

A place with God forever, where there will be no more sorrow, sickness, hate and ect.

Have you considered writing your own Bible?

The one God has supplied is more than sufficient.

I don't want anyone to suffer for eternity and neither does God, that's why Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all mankind.

That would be nice. But you don't believe the sacrifice counts unless someone says the right words in their head.

You have some kind of misguided notion to how salvation is obtained, could be if others here have the same idea, it's why they left the church. The sacrifice was made for all people, what you say with your mouth only means something when you accept the sacrifice in your heart. If you think there are some correct way of asking for salvation there's not, you just have to ask willingly.

It's not for all mankind, just for Christians (and probably not most of them), right?

If you're speaking of my above quote, yes all of mankind, if not then how could I be any better those who do not care. This is not in reference to anyone here, it's a general statement.

It's not our choice where they wind up, it is their's, we have no say in the matter.

Because God never listens to mortals? Because God never makes deals with mere humans? Because you don't care enough about the infinite suffering you envision to beg God to withold it or mitigate it? I think it's because you like the idea of people not of your tribe suffering forever.

You know I worry about you, this is on the edge of sadist speech. You might need to look into some help.
Now to answer you, Paul said he would go to hell if all the Jews could go to heaven. He also said he knew that couldn't be, why, because it's always been about the individuals desire and Christ died as our substitute. My pleas for the lost go on in prayer and just because you do not know it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You have been included in my prayers and I've been here for nearly 5 years, believe me I haven't stayed here this long just to be called everything in the book.

We're 'the other' and don't count as real people to you. At least that's more consistent with the way you've been acting than hollow claims that you 'care'.

I'll let the above answer speak to this, you sure seem to have anger issues are you okay.

People with unforgiven sin would cause trouble in heaven, why because they haven't changed.

Then God can freakin' forgive them!

No He can't they haven't asked, the further this conversation goes the more irritated you seem get.

We're talking about people that die, find out what the true religion is, and ask for forgiveness. And God can't keep order in his own house, no matter what, apparently.

They had their chance before death, I accepted the choice in this life, why shouldn't others have to, because they want to live their life their way. That's their choice, there's a price with that choice. I have an announcement for you please listen, since I've said this to many times, they want ask, they will only hate God even more because they seen their mistake and know what they actually gave up.

He's already proven that by having an angel rebellion. The people that qualify for getting in under the scheme you claim are no angels, they're human beings, most of whom are no different after they ask forgiveness.

Seems you do not know many Christians, and I've noticed that you are throwing blame onto everyone but the one's at fault. That's a sign of insecurity, are you really this insecure. As for the angel rebellion, God is letting evil run it's coarse, do you want to be part of the coarse, sucked into the evil Satan sales as good times. Maybe it's better to be on the side of the coarse that keeps people out of Satan's influence. I've chosen the latter, because I care, and I care because I know God is real and who He says He is.

If the kindest, warmest people on Earth who happened not to be Christians would cause trouble if allowed in heaven, how are self-righteous jackasses supposed to do better?

Self righteous jackasses want be there either.

That would make heaven something other than what God promised.

I missed the part in the Bible where God promised heaven would be filled with smug jerks who gloat over the misery of their lessers, but that IS the version of heaven promised by witnesses like you.

There's a reason you missed it, it's not there. I've never sold that to you or anyone else because I know that's not the truth. Satan on the other hand would be more than happy to keep you believing that.

You go to a movie everyone has recommend as an excellent movie, and you don't like it, you're not exactly happy with those who said it was good.

More like you go to a good movie, and there are some rowdy people there who spoil the movie for you, so the theater adopts a policy of kneecapping rowdy people at the door and cutting off their hands in addition to just not letting them in. Because the people who run the theater are both cruel and incapable of ensuring the enjoyment of the more decorous patrons any other way. We could say they're omnipotent and omniscient except when it comes to finding a way for someone to enjoy a movie when there are rowdy people around that doesn't involve a Texas Chainsaw Massacre-like scenario.

You are describing radical Muslims, those who promote your death.

So, no the people who gave their lives to Christ would not get along with those who think they deserve something they did not commit to.

In other words, they won't be any better people when they're in heaven than they are on earth. Big shock.

You sir have made a very correct statement, those who believe they deserve something without committing to it will never change. That's exactly why they would never ask for forgiveness, they see themselves as self righteous. You are right, no big shock.

It's serious. I can tell the difference and it's small of you to say I can't.

Well you couldn't tell why it's consistent to think someone bad getting into heaven because they asked God for forgiveness five minutes before they died and someone good not getting into heaven because they asked God for forgiveness five minutes after they died isn't very fair. Can you forgive me for not having a high opinon of your insight?

You have a right to your own opinion.
A ten minutes difference, and the last five do not get another chance, they had all that they needed here, God being omniscient knows this.

There's a difference Dahmer recognized his sin and was remorseful, he chose Christ as his savior and the Father granted him forgiveness through grace. If a man like Dahmer was, can see the truth and respond to it, then why do you find it so hard.

Despite Christianity now having Dahmer's shining example as an endorsement, I don't see how a man like that buying your pitch lends it any credibility.

It has noting to do with Dahmer, me or you it's about the love of forgiveness God gives to those who want forgiveness from sin against God. The credibility goes to God because He does what He promises no matter how bad a person has been.

Frankly, who you can point as having been taken in is irrelevant to the truth. The Muslims are outpacing the Christians right now in convincing people of 'the truth' does that make their message truer than yours? Is the truth a convert contest? If it isn't, why bring up your converts? If you don't consider Mormons Christians, note that they're growing faster, too.

There is no contest, it's about love and the one's who want to make it a contest have little understanding. I can agree Satan is grabbing up many through the muslim and mormon religions.

There is noway I or anyone could describe the awesomeness of heaven, but I can and do make it clear how one gets there.

Because some Middle Eastern tribesmen wrote it down millenia ago and everything in their book is true. I've heard that.

Good, now you need to believe it.

Sorry if you can't handle something made so simple, that even the simple minded can understand.

I can't handle something so ridiculous, that only the brainwashed could believe it.

Guess you'll have to wait and see.

Granted, however the story I've been told came from God, not a human, yes a human witnessed the story but, God confirmed it's truth and worth.

According to the story.

According to me and what I absolutely know.

First of all we need to get something straight, all I can do is witness, it is God's job to save you, I have no power to do so, nor would I want that kind of power.

If you were in trouble, I'd wish for the power to save you. Just sayin'.

Wishing for a power you can't have nor handle is not even a reasonable desire.

I don't see people that come here and see what's going on as lurkers, since you do I would think that would go against your credibility to call others as haters. I do not represent hate and despise it.

Hate is as hate does. If you're not full of hate, why do your posts drip with venom?

My post drip with venom, you must be blind in more ways than one, I care where you spend eternity and it seems you do not, so how is it that venom can come from someone who cares. I guess that one who hates God and those who love God see caring as venom.

To the one who say, "if I were an anti-Christian," yet demonstrates it almost daily, has little credibility with anyone.

I know a lot of admirable Christians. I just wish you were one of them.

Like I said, I care about where you spend eternity, if those others are tip toeing around you, then admirable isn't part of their life. Yes I sometimes am hard and when I am it gets your attention.

It's not my fault that others try to white wash God's plan and justice,

You apparenty have a real problem grasping that people can really believe differently than you do, to the point that you accuse them of 'whitewashing God's plan an justice' based solely on knowing thay don't tell people the same things you do.

If they are not telling you that the only way to salvation ( which includes heaven) is through Christ, then they are giving you a false testimony.

I have no control over them, you see it's those who cause others to say I've nothing to lose by being God's enemy.

And it's you that makes God sound like someone of whom a good and brave person would want no part.

No that's what you want to believe, I've always told you about a loving God who wants you to spend eternity with Him, if you'll only accept.

It's not the UCC driving people away from Christianity, it's the fundamentalist Evangelicals. Your kids meet Buddhists and atheists and gay people and scientists in real life and find out that you lot have been lying your heads off about them. It's like you're working for Richard Dawkins.

Honestly I have no idea what you're saying here, not sure I want to either.

Not true you make yourself an enemy of God and you will pay the price you ran up here in this life.

Because you've wasted your life if you get to heaven and find out they allow the plebes in as well. Or worse, that you're condemned as a false witness and thrown into the pit for driving people away from redemption with your arrogance, pride, and self-righteous atttude. If there's a just God and a heaven and a hell, I worry a bit about that for you, but I hope you get in anyway.

I'll be there, will you. Want you to know something here, God doesn't care about your opinion of me.

Now here's the truth Jesus preached more about hell than most any other subject,

So he had a tendency to dwell on the negative like you? Are you sure you're not projecting?

You should read scripture and stop asking such small questions. Christ died for you and you're call Him negative. Pleaseeee, get real.

He preached more about hell than heaven, seems He thought it would be a good place for humans to avoid, it's why He paid our price and gave us a choice to avoid it.

A fair number of people believe he paid the price, period.

Not unless you accept what He did and do it in this life.

Jesus said Christians would be hated because of Him, yet I readily accept that, but don't get me wrong it does hurt.

I've never met anyone who hated Christians because they act too much like Jesus.

You do not know many people do you.

You're right the modern church is at fault, it's gone soft.

You're like the party that loses an election and decides that what they need to do the next time is more of what they were doing the last time. Fundamentalists had an unbelievable serge the last 70 years in America. They gained power. They gained attention. And now that they've shown everyone what they really are, they're dwindling. And they're not just taking themselves down, they're dragging down the mainstream Christians because they've given Christians such a bad rap in America that the brand is becoming radioactive.

That's what Christians get when they try and play politics, I believe Christians need to live a Christian life and let politics take care of it's self. I'm not saying Christians shouldn't run for office, they need to bring their faith with them and some do.

This nation was a much stronger Christian nation when Christians witnessed the real truth.

Before they changed the US motto and the US pledge of allegiance to to send the message to everyone that only Christians are real Americans?

No Christian see it that way, we're realist and know there will be unbelievers.

Angry people such as yourself have intimidated Christians, but I'm not one easily intimidated.

Now that you can't have us burnt or hung, you've got nothing but whining that we're picking on you.

I'm not whining, the most whining I hear, is the atheist here.

Lucifer,Eve and Adam fell to the sin of selfishness that brought on the sin of disobedience.

In the fairy tale that you think is true. It's got a talking snake and magic fruit, these are giveaways that a story is either entertainment or metaphor. And a beautiful metaphor it is: we desire to do good, but we're tempted to do bad, a constant struggle within ourselves that the story illustrates perfectly, but the literalist cheapens it to an Aesop's fable taken seriously.

That's your problem you see God as a fairy tale, the truth will be revealed as you want it to be one day, but it will be to late for many.

You're wrong much of it hurts and unfortunately we respond wrongly at times, most Christians have admitted they have and some of the atheist have and I appreciate those who do so.

Really? I've never seen the slightest sign you even try, but it's not like I've never missed a post of yours OR like I have a great memory, so I'm happy to take your word for it.

Thank you.

It would be nice to occasionally see a post that demonstrates the caring in which you so readily try to drape yourself. You're always as good as your last post with me, should you decide to give showing caring instead of just saying you care a try.

You should read more of what I post.

That's the opinion of one who claims not to be an anti-Christian, yet shows how anti-Christian he is in most of his posts.

If I based my opinion on your posts, I probably would be anti-Christian. But you're not Christianity, you're just one guy on the internet, and not being impressed by you or your particular flavor of Christian theology says nothing about how I feel about Christians or Christianity in general. It's not your Christianity I take issue with. It's something else about your posts I find frustrating. Please read the rest of my signature before you assume that your Christianity is the relevant quality in our disagreement.

It's not my Christianity, but I'm consistent in what I say. I'm not wishy washy and tell the truth from scriptures, no one here as ever overturned any explanation I've given for verses, they've made attempts but have never brought any proof. I know Christians are suppose to bring the truth but, you know what, you all say that because you have no counter proof, it's your way of avoiding intelligent Biblical discussions. It's why you use foul language, a distraction from the relevant.

Persecuted that's funny, Christians in this country are not persecuted.

And thankfully so. Sadly, too many people, including Christians, suffer real persecution and oppression in some parts of the world, which is a real shame and the sooner it gets better the happier I'll be.

Good, I couldn't agree more.

I'm glad you recognize the difference between being persecuted and not always getting your own way or people arguing with you. That's a point in your favor compared to some of your more pearl-clutching co-religionists.

To many Christians have become soft and believe they are injured by words and other petty things. I assume my rights as a citizen of this country and speak my mind. I do try doing it without being barbaric.

Why do you throw so much hate at us.

It's not hate, it's irritation, and it's because you're being an ass.

How so, please show me so I'll know what you are speaking of?

I've never threatened or said any specifically deserves hell and I challenge you to show me where I have.

First, I challenge you show me where I've said or done things you never claimed I did in the first place, and then we can talk about that. You're more like a thug who comes into someone's store and tells them what the Don's gonna have done to them if they don't start cooperatin', capish?

First of all I asked you a question, if you do not want to respond then just say so or ignore the question.
Secondly I give you what scripture says, it's not my fault you do not like what it says, I know it can be convicting and bothersome, but don't blame me for what scripture does.

We're not perfect, we do make mistakes, but there's one mistake we haven't made, refusing to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

No one's asking for perfection, just something different about you that supports the claim that you have some wonderful thing in your life that the rest of us don't.

So you're saying that I'm not to act like the atheist here, now that's a new thing, not sure I know what to make of it. If you want to see Christ in my life come be my neighbor and observe, I'll gladly welcome you here.

Accepting Jesus hasn't done anything for you that I can tell.

You didn't know me before I was saved, you wouldn't have liked me, but I'm sure there are some here who would have.

There are some really good people who are Christians, but there are some really good people who are Hindus, Muslims, and so on.

I agree from a human standpoint, but eternal life will not be judged from a human standpoint, for those who do not accept Christ it will be a judgement against God's goodness and the laws of Moses.

I have all kinds of evidence but, you dismiss it without even considering the consequences or considering it's validity.

I assure you that the validity of your evidence will be carefully considered. I suspect you're witholding it because, deep down, you know whatever it is, isn't really valid. It probably isn't even really evidence.

It's evidence and valid, valid enough I will never give up what I know to be the truth, but for some reason if I give spiritual evidence only Christians seem to understand.

I'll try to get to the last part of your post later.

GC

---

You may as well disparage all science if your reject evolution. You're denying chemistry, geology, paleontology, and biology.

Yet you'll still go to the doctor when you get ill.

I couldn't do my job without biology and, therefore, evolution.

Biology doesn't necessarily need evolution.

GC

[Whateverist]

I couldn't do my job without biology and, therefore, evolution.

Biology doesn't necessarily need evolution.

GC

Not unless you want to go and make it all sciency and stuff. Doubt if they even prayed on it first.

[rexbeccarox]

Biology doesn't necessarily need evolution.

GC

Pretty sure the entire basis of Biology rests within the TOE.


Wow.

[robvalue]

Evolution fails as a science because it claims that complex things such as the human eye just popped into existence out of nowhere. How can you take that seriously?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Biology doesn't necessarily need evolution.

GC

Well, it's a good thing I didn't say that. What I said was, [i]if you reject evolution, you may as well disparage all of science, because you'll be denying sciences like chemistry, paleontology, geology, and biology.

Convergent, interlocking evidence from each of those fields demonstrates that evolution is a fact.

People who deny that either are ignorant of the facts, or unwilling to put away their childish superstitions -- or, as in your case, both.

[Godscreated]

Biology doesn't necessarily need evolution.

GC

Well, it's a good thing I didn't say that. What I said was, [i]if you reject evolution, you may as well disparage all of science, because you'll be denying sciences like chemistry, paleontology, geology, and biology.

Convergent, interlocking evidence from each of those fields demonstrates that evolution is a fact.

People who deny that either are ignorant of the facts, or unwilling to put away their childish superstitions -- or, as in your case, both.

I can use chemistry to make a grape soda, what's that got to do with evolution.

GC

[Cyberman]

Where do you think the grapes came from?

[robvalue]

Grapes come from Science! If you eat grapes, you worship science!

Oh god made science? Wow I didnt see that coming! So who made g... OW! Get off me!

[Strider]

Grapes obviously came from god. He had the munchies one day and said, "Dude, I want some delicious, bite-sized fruits that can also be fermented into the most wonderful concoction ever...but y'all can't drink it to drunkenness because I say so." C'mon, guys. Get with the program here. That's common knowledge, AMIRITE?