Why worship?

[Chad32]

No, one free thinking being should not have a right to do whatever s/he wants with another free thinking being, whether that person created the other or not. That's why we have laws protecting children, even from their parents. I and someone else can create Humans too, but we don't get to do whatever we want with them.

He gave them laws, but they didn't improve society. The divisiveness of religion has caused genocides. I don't think slaves felt their lives were improved just because Yahweh told slave masters not to beat them so much that they died a day or two later. I don't think girls felt their lives were improved when all their friends or families were killed, and they were kidnapped by the men with their family's blood on their hands. What were these laws that were meant to help society so much?

You want me to change the statement to ask Yahweh real nice to forgive me for something I have no control over? You want to argue semantics, or address the point?

Yes, I ask forgiveness from people I have wronged. Not from someone whose feelings are hurt because I wronged a third party. Your god is no better than any Human. He has done atrocities that would make the worst dictator blush.

Like I said, there is no sin debt. why should I feel the need to take responsibility for something I have no control over? I didn't start out perfect, and screw up in a way to lose it. I didn't have the ability to gain it on my own, yet failed to do it. I don't need to ask forgiveness for not reaching a bar that's impossible to reach.

If you see someone do something, and have the power to stop it, yet allow it, that makes you partially responsible for it. There are horrible things that happen to people that are beyond their control, and erasing it would not effect their free will. Yet he doesn't. He either is not as powerful as people have claimed, or he doesn't care.

[orangebox21]

No, one free thinking being should not have a right to do whatever s/he wants with another free thinking being, whether that person created the other or not. That's why we have laws protecting children, even from their parents. I and someone else can create Humans too, but we don't get to do whatever we want with them.

Humans don't create humans, they reproduce them. Humans are equal to humans but not equal to God. You continue to make a false analogy. What is true for a human to human relationship is not necessarily true for a human to God relationship.

He gave them laws, but they didn't improve society. The divisiveness of religion has caused genocides. I don't think slaves felt their lives were improved just because Yahweh told slave masters not to beat them so much that they died a day or two later. I don't think girls felt their lives were improved when all their friends or families were killed, and they were kidnapped by the men with their family's blood on their hands. What were these laws that were meant to help society so much?

I'm not talking about theocratic law, but rather the moral law. Society would be better if the moral law was followed, and a society following God's moral law would not face the punishment that the Amorites did.

You want me to change the statement to ask Yahweh real nice to forgive me for something I have no control over? You want to argue semantics, or address the point?

I didn't say that.

Yes, I ask forgiveness from people I have wronged. Not from someone whose feelings are hurt because I wronged a third party. Your god is no better than any Human. He has done atrocities that would make the worst dictator blush.

God is not a third party. Your sin is against Him. And as it follows, if you recognize wrongdoing against a person requires asking forgiveness....

Like I said, there is no sin debt. why should I feel the need to take responsibility for something I have no control over? I didn't start out perfect, and screw up in a way to lose it. I didn't have the ability to gain it on my own, yet failed to do it. I don't need to ask forgiveness for not reaching a bar that's impossible to reach.

Certainly you don't live your life in a way that denies personal responsibility, and yet it is your defense to God?

If you see someone do something, and have the power to stop it, yet allow it, that makes you partially responsible for it. There are horrible things that happen to people that are beyond their control, and erasing it would not effect their free will. Yet he doesn't. He either is not as powerful as people have claimed, or he doesn't care.

And we're back to the problem of evil and God's moral responsibility.

[The Grand Nudger]

Right...so "god" gets a pass on things that would be horrid if a man did them. But we've got to toe his line..because if we don't..he'll hurt us real bad - like he did with the "amorites". Why anyone gives a shit about this sort of "morality" or "god" is beyond me. I can find dicks like that here on earth, don't reckon I'll be bowing down to them anytime soon. Yourself?

I'm entirely disinterested in what douchegod wants or thinks is the right thing, as disinterested in "him" as he is in us and what we want or what we think is the right thing. Anyone (god or man) that assumes no responsibility themselves, doesn't get to have a conversation with me about my responsibilities (let alone lecture me on them). I don't owe anyone shit unless I enter into an agreement with that party.

I have higher standards for people....I'm not going to lower the bar for a god, know what I mean?

[Chad32]

I suppose if you define creation as speaking things into existence, then I suppose Humans don't create other Humans. We don't have access to Naming Magic. When two Humans combine a sperm with an egg, a Human grows out of it. If you want to say your god put a soul in there, you need to prove that souls and gods exist.

And who decides what is ok in a relationship between Humans and gods? The god? Just because he's more powerful? How is that any different than my dad saying it? Both of them could easily kill me if they wanted. What gives the god the right to do what he wants?

You want to go into moral law? How is genocide, rape, and slavery ok (with one or two exceptions), but homosexuality an abomination. The bible is not morally superior to secular laws. A society following your god's moral law would be doing what theocracies do. It ends up with mass murder, priests getting away with raping children, and holding down all but a select group of people on pain of abandonment and death. Don't act like the morals of that book are better than democratic secular morals, because history and current events don't agree.

You wanted me to point out where he says beg for forgiveness, but that's avoiding my point. Why should I need forgiveness for something I have nothing to do with?

If what I do to other people offends him, he is a third party to it. I can't imagine that I could harm him, or cause him to lose something he can't get back, so I haven't done anything directly to him. Except refuse to worship something I don't know exists, and speak out against things that I was raised to find repulsive.

If I have done something wrong, I'll take responsibility for it. I don't need someone else to be brutally murdered on my behalf, to be used as a scapegoat. As long as my sentence is just, which among other things means it's temporary.

Yes, he is partly responsible for everything that happens, by virtue of not nipping Satan in the bud before he screwed it up, and having the power to stop horrible things from happening that Humans have no control over.

[Dystopia]

I'll always see worship is an irrational acceptance of illegitimate authority, regardless of god existing or not. I'm not an anarchist, I think citizens have the duty to, within the benefits provided by free speech and other fundamental rights, respect and accept State authority, as long as governmental institutions are elected trough democratically viable procedures. Citizens also have the right to criticize, dislike and protest against State authority if they disagree with institutions, actions and legislative measures, once again within the boundaries of legality and fundamental human rights.

But even so, I would never argue that individuals should worship the State as some kind of supreme authority; if there are relevant reasons, individuals have the right to refuse public authority, as it is already allowed in case of abusive use of public power (this is the law in Portugal, I don't know about America, but I assume there are laws protecting individuals from excessive use of public power by the State and governmental institutions). I see the State as a natural social construct made by us, Humans, and it constitutes a necessity above anything else - There is no clear evidence except from minor, regional, temporarily limited cases that the Human race can live without the supervision of a State... However there's no reason for me to worship the State, though to be fair, there are more reasons for me to worship the government than god.

With this in mind, why should anyone worship god, even if he happens to exist? Why accept an authority that you didn't chose or voted for? Why worship a being that, according to most religions and out of logical necessity, is responsible for all the violence, hatred, immoralities and atrocities in the universe? Why accept without questions? Why worship blindly?

Obviously, atheists don't worship gods because they don't believe in one, but even theists shouldn't worship so easily out of pure theological "obligation". This doesn't mean you can't worship anything or anyone - In fact, if you could prove trough deduction or induction, that your god is incapable of preventing evil but is responsible for all good in the world, why not worship? [In this last possibility I'd suspect that someone who gives us everything that is positive will probably want something in return, but I'm just a suspicious bastard)... If I wanted to I could worship my significant other, because she contributes largely to my happiness and personal well being, satisfaction and joy, so it would make sense if I made her some kind of "goddess" (I don't want to deviate to perversions right now), and it would be reasonably justified trough verifiable facts and "proof" - But that's not the case of god.

If god really exists, he is probably the last being worthy of any worship from human beings, there are objects people far more deserving of our worship than a supernatural being that exists outside of time and space.

For reasons presented, worship is the blind, irrational and dangerous acceptance of illegitimate authority and should therefore be rejected.

[Godscreated]

No, one free thinking being should not have a right to do whatever s/he wants with another free thinking being,....

You stand behind this statement?

If you see someone do something, and have the power to stop it, yet allow it, that makes you partially responsible for it. There are horrible things that happen to people that are beyond their control, and erasing it would not effect their free will. Yet he doesn't. He either is not as powerful as people have claimed, or he doesn't care.

If you do say yes to my above question, then you are guilty as you charge God is guilty.
Child sex slavery is greater today than it has ever been in the existence of man, everyone here knows that, yet you do nothing. Maybe you can't stop it all by yourself, but you can make a difference, do you or do you set around and put it out of mind and sight. please do not come back and say others here do not help, they nor I made the statement you did.

GC

[Chad32]

I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, omnipotent. Don't talk to me about going to other countries and doing my best to stop slavery, and rape, and all this stuff when your god is supposed to be omnipresent and omnipotent. Meaning he is literally watching these people suffer for things beyond their control, and doing nothing.

If you want to judge me for not donating to charities, or traveling the world, and all that stuff, that's fine. Maybe I'm not doing as much as I could. However, I did not supposedly create all those people. I do not demand that people worship me on pain of death or abandonment. Maybe I would be a better person if I gave some of my time and money to charities to help mitigate it little by little.

My point is this problem wouldn't exist if your god was real, and genuinely wanted it to stop. You're trying to paint me as a hypocrite. You think I'm less than your god, but I'm actually better by virtue that I can be proven to exist and don't kill or command the killing of people who put things in their lives before me. I don't feel the need to be the center of everyone's lives. That's how benevolent people think.

[IATIA]

Child sex slavery is greater today than it has ever been in the existence of man, everyone here knows that, yet you do nothing. Maybe you can't stop it all by yourself, but you can make a difference, do you or do you set around and put it out of mind and sight. please do not come back and say others here do not help, they nor I made the statement you did.

If your god cannot do anything about it, how is a mere mortal supposed to stop it?

[Godscreated]

I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, omnipotent. Don't talk to me about going to other countries and doing my best to stop slavery, and rape, and all this stuff when your god is supposed to be omnipresent and omnipotent. Meaning he is literally watching these people suffer for things beyond their control, and doing nothing.

Did I say you were, no, you were the one who brought the human factor in with the parents and child, now you're going to have to deal with this aspect you brought into the conversation. It doesn't matter where you live in the world, sex slave trade with children is rampant every where. Stop blaming God, you do not believe He exist, it's up to those who believe religion is responsible for slavery to save the day, it's a human thing to do, right. The atheist here for the most part claim the moral high ground over Christians and God, yet you are showing you fail miserably by allowing something as terrible as this to go on. Do you believe God and Christians are running child sex slavery, this actually takes a breed of people who believe children as any humans are nothing more than animals, to be used as they please.

If you want to judge me for not donating to charities, or traveling the world, and all that stuff, that's fine. Maybe I'm not doing as much as I could. However, I did not supposedly create all those people. I do not demand that people worship me on pain of death or abandonment. Maybe I would be a better person if I gave some of my time and money to charities to help mitigate it little by little.

I'm not judging you, all I've do here is apply your requirements on you, or are you exempt from your own standards and requirements. Religion has nothing to do with this, it takes people who have lowered themselves to the level of animals to do such terrible acts.
Does giving money and time really mean anything unless one's heart is actually convicted, convicted to help stop it. If one's heart isn't convicted then what does that say about that person.

My point is this problem wouldn't exist if your god was real, and genuinely wanted it to stop. You're trying to paint me as a hypocrite. You think I'm less than your god, but I'm actually better by virtue that I can be proven to exist and don't kill or command the killing of people who put things in their lives before me. I don't feel the need to be the center of everyone's lives. That's how benevolent people think.

God wants it stopped, that's why you, me and all that care were created, this is a man made problem, God wants us to realize this and step up and fix this thing. Could God just kill all these evil people, yes, and then some would condemn Him for doing so, free will is our responsibility, to act is our choice, to care is our moral responsibility, unless we are more like those predators than we are human beings. For God to act and put this atrocity away would be to reveal Himself to man leaving no choice to anyone and that could bring terrible consequences to many.
I'm not trying to make you a hypocrite, that's not my intention, that's a though that you have brought to this conversation, not me.
I think all, no I know all people are far less than God, if we weren't he wouldn't be God.
You think that some of these children when they are used up and a burden to these animals are not dying, really. I don't think you could possibly be so naive. So with this reality, who is it that's condemning these children to death, the completely unmoral animals that couldn't care less, or those who claim the moral high ground, wouldn't that be the ones who believe in a morality. Without doing anything are you, whether it's a bother or what ever reason can be thought of, condemning those little ones to death because you're putting your life before there's. I am applying this to everyone who reads this, not just you. If anyone denies there responsibility they are can have no right to condemn God or anyone else!

GC

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Child sex slavery is greater today than it has ever been in the existence of man, everyone here knows that, yet you do nothing. Maybe you can't stop it all by yourself, but you can make a difference, do you or do you set around and put it out of mind and sight. please do not come back and say others here do not help, they nor I made the statement you did.

If your god cannot do anything about it, how is a mere mortal supposed to stop it?

When enough people care and decided to do something, they lift themselves above those who do this kind of terrible thing. Until then, are they any more moral than the animals that sell children for sex.

GC

[robvalue]

If God bears any resemblance to the characters depicted in the popular story books, there would be no reason at all to worship it other than out of pure fear of what he will do to you if you don't. It's sad to see theists granting God a free pass to do anything at all, things they know damn well are evil and which you would condemn anyone else for doing. Why, because he's more powerful than you? I would say that point is entirely questionable since his demonstrable effect on earth has been fuck all.

Almost everyone on earth is more moral and more intelligent than Yahweh or Allah, for starters. You guys are facilitating an abusive relationship. It just so happens it's with an imaginary abuser, but the fact that you think it isn't is what makes it so sick. Giving anyone or anything free reign, just because they say so, is a dangerous concept. You sell out all your morality and integrity in entirely bowing down to a tyrant. I understand totally doing it out of fear, but doing it for any other reason is sick.

The God is either so impotent or non existent as to let me talk all this smack about him, putting myself and other humans above him in all meaningful regards. Instantly some people will be thinking I'll get my punishment after I die. It's yet another fear tactic getting people bowing down to nothing at all. No one knows what happens after we die, stop letting people (not gods) tell you what happens and leveraging you with it.