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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 9:25 pm
(January 28, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Tonus Wrote: (January 28, 2015 at 9:11 pm)YGninja Wrote: Well, its quite simple really. The punishment for sin is death, you should, by rights, die. But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that he who may believe shall have eternal life. You will be held accountable for your sins, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Wouldn't it have been a lot simpler to just say "behave and I'll reward you" without the whole convoluted part where he simulates killing himself in order to present himself with a check to himself on behalf of everyone else?
It might have been simpler, but may not have achieved the ends God intended. Suffering himself, as man, knowing mans suffering, knowing mans tribulations, makes him a person who we can accept to judge us. Being forgiven teaches us to forgive. To be sinless and yet die a sinners death for those you love, teaches us of Gods nature, and inspires us.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 9:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2015 at 11:00 pm by Chad32.)
Actually if he never sinned, he never felt the kind of things Humans feel. The only way we're forgiven is if we dedicate our lives to him, so does he expect us to only forgive people who dedicate their lives to us? Oh, we have a good idea of Yahweh's nature. Narcissistic and violent. Jesus' teachings were a small step in the right direction, but he still fumbles the ball in some ways and is only somewhat more progressive for his time.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 9:39 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2015 at 10:09 pm by Nope.)
(January 28, 2015 at 9:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Actually if he never sinned, he never felt the kind of things Humans feel. The only way we're forgiven is if we dedicate our lives to him, so does he expect us to only forgive people who dedicate their lives to us? Oh, we hae a good idea of Yahweh's nature. Narcissistic and violent. Jesus' teachings were a small step in the right direction, but he still fumbles the ball in some ways and is only somewhat more progressive for his time.
His teachings weren't that out of the ordinary for first century Jews. For example, Quote:Hillel said: "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary" (Shab. 31a).
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7698-hillel
Quote:"Judge not thy neighbor till thou art in his place
"
I have often wondered if Hillel was the prototype for Jesus
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 10:25 pm
(January 28, 2015 at 9:25 pm)YGninja Wrote: It might have been simpler, but may not have achieved the ends God intended. Suffering himself, as man, knowing mans suffering, knowing mans tribulations, makes him a person who we can accept to judge us. Being forgiven teaches us to forgive. To be sinless and yet die a sinners death for those you love, teaches us of Gods nature, and inspires us. I don't see how the most advanced and brilliant intellect in the universe would need to experience being human to understand humanity, especially considering that every facet of the human mind and psyche were created by that very being. Nor would he have to come to some sort of understanding in order to set rules and a system of penalty and reward.
Unless there was the risk that he would commit a sin and thus be truly human, his life as a man was a mockery of humanity. To believe the Bible, in all of human history the only human to remain free of sin was god, when he was masquerading as a human. If he did it to understand the human experience, then he apparently did it wrong. What he did experience was barbarity, scheming, and brutal violence, yet the experience did not affect him in the way that one might have assumed. One would have hoped that, having gone through such grueling physical torment, god would have made sure no one ever had to go through that again.
Instead... he invents hell. 
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 10:35 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2015 at 10:36 pm by Nope.)
(January 28, 2015 at 10:25 pm)Tonus Wrote: (January 28, 2015 at 9:25 pm)YGninja Wrote: It might have been simpler, but may not have achieved the ends God intended. Suffering himself, as man, knowing mans suffering, knowing mans tribulations, makes him a person who we can accept to judge us. Being forgiven teaches us to forgive. To be sinless and yet die a sinners death for those you love, teaches us of Gods nature, and inspires us. I don't see how the most advanced and brilliant intellect in the universe would need to experience being human to understand humanity, especially considering that every facet of the human mind and psyche were created by that very being. Nor would he have to come to some sort of understanding in order to set rules and a system of penalty and reward.
Unless there was the risk that he would commit a sin and thus be truly human, his life as a man was a mockery of humanity. To believe the Bible, in all of human history the only human to remain free of sin was god, when he was masquerading as a human. If he did it to understand the human experience, then he apparently did it wrong. What he did experience was barbarity, scheming, and brutal violence, yet the experience did not affect him in the way that one might have assumed. One would have hoped that, having gone through such grueling physical torment, god would have made sure no one ever had to go through that again.
Instead... he invents hell.
I never understood why an all knowing being had to become human in order to experience what it is like to be human. If god has something to learn, he isn't omniscient.
Of course, the only people who expect the Christian god to act like he actually is omnipotent or omniscient are atheists. Christians tend to act like they believe their god's power is limited.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 10:37 pm
He commands us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, then wonders why most people don't worship him.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 11:02 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2015 at 11:10 pm by JuliaL.)
Nope Wrote:God led the Hebrews into believing that one way pleased him and then, according to Christians, changed the rules on the Jewish people.
So God makes rules for the Hebrews and swaps them out for new rules for the Christians.
What makes the Christians think He won't be doing this again?
Doesn't that make rigid adherence kind of uncertain?
Is there a "no, really, I mean it this time," in the bible?
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 11:09 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2015 at 11:11 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 28, 2015 at 9:25 pm)YGninja Wrote: Suffering himself, as man, knowing mans suffering, knowing mans tribulations, makes him a person who we can accept to judge us. Funny thing about that, the crucifixion narrative explains precisely why this concept cannot judge us, or be used to judge us. Who would place authority in the hands of a scapegoater?
Quote:Being forgiven teaches us to forgive. To be sinless and yet die a sinners death for those you love, teaches us of Gods nature, and inspires us.
Sure does, and that nature is one of moral bankruptcy. I hope it doesn't inspire you -too- much..or we'll have to send you to texas to get hit over the head /w a brick.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 28, 2015 at 11:25 pm
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter
January 29, 2015 at 4:20 am
Ninja: You realize that all sin means is "something God doesn't like", right? It's nothing to do with whether it's actually beneficial or harmful to humans.
So jesus living a sinless life amounts to him living a life God liked. And he is God. So he lived a life he liked. Is that supposed to impress me?
Sin is an entirely imaginary concept used to control people, pointing to an invisible man in the sky and saying, "You upset him!".
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