Hate the belief, not the believer

[Mudhammam]

I don't find myself able to hate people very easily. There are moments when I feel vitriol towards them for their actions but generally, and in a more rational frame of mind, I just feel sorry for them or tell myself that they're not worth any more of my time thinking about.

[Dystopia]

Since I de-converted from Christianity, I kind of adapted my "hate the sin, not the sinner" ideals. I have been through some really terrible things at the hands of religious people, in the name of god, and justified by the religion itself.

I have been thinking a lot about personal responsibility, and versus impaired judgement due to childhood indoctrination.

I think playing the card of impaired judgement would excuse all kinds of actions done by religious people in the name of god, including violence, terrorism, homophobia, misogyny, etc

I'm really struggling trying to find a cross over point. When do stop blaming the religion for a person's wrong doings and make take responsibility of their own actions. When is it okay to hate the believer for their beliefs?

It is ok to hate the believer the same way you would hate an atheist for the exact same reasons. I think hate is a strong word to use against other human beings, I don't hate many people - I dislike, for example, homophobics and religion is the main cause of homophobia, but I will happily dislike an homophobic atheist as much.

There is some personal responsibility involved - I know that indoctrinated people are hard to change, but regardless of the level of firm belief you have in god it doesn't take 1/2 brain to figure that some things are just wrong. You don't have to be a genius to know that executing gay people, bombing buildings and oppressing groups of non believers/minorities is wrong.

[Minimalist]

Losty, you are a very nice person. For myself...I find it hard to separate the asshole from the ass.

[AFTT47]

That's right. Hating someone does not hurt them. So it really doesn't matter. What matters is actions. If that hate caused you to do something to them that you otherwise wouldn't, then that becomes a problem. As far as I'm concerned, thoughts don't hurt anyone.

So I agree, go ahead and hate someone who has hurt you. It's a natural reaction. I would also guess that trying to stifle that emotion may make it harder for you to deal with what has happened in the long term. And hate tends to fade over time, if it is not reignited.

I would argue that thoughts DO hurt someone - the person who is thinking them. You can't be happy or at peace at the same time you're feeling angry. That's the real value of forgiveness. It's for YOU - not for the person you are forgiving. You can think all the evil thoughts in the world about someone and it's not going to hurt them one iota. It WILL hurt you though.

Anger is indeed natural but it's not healthy. It can be tempered with intellect - especially if you accept the fact that you are only harming yourself with it. It's bad enough if someone wrongs you through some action but staying mad at them only compounds it.

[Losty]

Losty, you are a very nice person. For myself...I find it hard to separate the asshole from the ass.

I try to be a nice person. Recently I am struggling a lot with it.

Hate isn't something I do. I've tried to express that in the thread. I don't think I have ever truly hated someone. These are mostly people I love. I love them and I want to say it's not their fault because they honestly believe this thing and that thing, so having that belief and then doing these things in their mind is love. These are awful things done with good intentions....right? But lately it has gotten to a point here I just cannot understand how anyone could not see that these are not good things. If you're hurting me out of some sort of tough love because your religion tells you this and that, if it's so bad that I have to move and change my number, it becomes obvious that what you're doing isn't okay. That it's wrong. Can someone possibly be so deluded by their religion that they honestly think what they're doing is ok or even right? And when it gets to this point of disrupting my life and my peace of mind and my sanity do your good intentions even count for anything?

This is a war I have with myself inside my own mind. I will tell myself that I am done making excuses that they're terrible people and only they are to blame for what they've done, but then I always find myself right back to making excuses for them. Telling myself it's not their fault because they were raised to believe these things and so they don't know or understand the effects of what they're doing.

But then...I was raised that way too. Sigh. I don't understand how people can let their religion influence them to a point of hurting someone.

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That's right. Hating someone does not hurt them. So it really doesn't matter. What matters is actions. If that hate caused you to do something to them that you otherwise wouldn't, then that becomes a problem. As far as I'm concerned, thoughts don't hurt anyone.

So I agree, go ahead and hate someone who has hurt you. It's a natural reaction. I would also guess that trying to stifle that emotion may make it harder for you to deal with what has happened in the long term. And hate tends to fade over time, if it is not reignited.

I would argue that thoughts DO hurt someone - the person who is thinking them. You can't be happy or at peace at the same time you're feeling angry. That's the real value of forgiveness. It's for YOU - not for the person you are forgiving. You can think all the evil thoughts in the world about someone and it's not going to hurt them one iota. It WILL hurt you though.

Anger is indeed natural but it's not healthy. It can be tempered with intellect - especially if you accept the fact that you are only harming yourself with it. It's bad enough if someone wrongs you through some action but staying mad at them only compounds it.

And being too forgiving only sets you up for being hurt again by the same people in the same way. This is where I usually struggle. This is what gets me every time.

[Mister Agenda]

One of the worst things about people in general is that most of them are doing the best they can, considering their history and capacity and circumstances. What is it, about 4% of Americans suffer from sociopathic personality disorder, which is next to untreatable, They're nearly all asshats, many are criminals, and some are murderers; but it isn't their own fault that they are impaired in feeling empathy and genuine affection. So there's 4%, about 1 in 25, before you even start thinking about indoctrination, abuse, poverty, peer pressure, excessive wealth, neglect, and baggage in general.

I find it hard to hate anyone, I'm more like 'hate the causes, not the symptoms'.

[Godscreated]

I don't think many here actually do hate the believer, there is a lot here that say terrible things about their beliefs, but I don't think its the believe itself they point those words to, well I hope not, that wouldn't be very intelligent at all.

You might want to start reading what's said a little closer and without a tilt to the bias. They're several here that hate Christians and they've said so.

GC

[Mister Agenda]

I don't think many here actually do hate the believer, there is a lot here that say terrible things about their beliefs, but I don't think its the believe itself they point those words to, well I hope not, that wouldn't be very intelligent at all.

You might want to start reading what's said a little closer and without a tilt to the bias. They're several here that hate Christians and they've said so.

GC

So let's have a quote so we know who you're talking about, and then let them explain themselves. Min doesn't count, he hates everyone.

[AFTT47]

I would argue that thoughts DO hurt someone - the person who is thinking them. You can't be happy or at peace at the same time you're feeling angry. That's the real value of forgiveness. It's for YOU - not for the person you are forgiving. You can think all the evil thoughts in the world about someone and it's not going to hurt them one iota. It WILL hurt you though.

Anger is indeed natural but it's not healthy. It can be tempered with intellect - especially if you accept the fact that you are only harming yourself with it. It's bad enough if someone wrongs you through some action but staying mad at them only compounds it.

And being too forgiving only sets you up for being hurt again by the same people in the same way. This is where I usually struggle. This is what gets me every time.

Letting go of anger at them isn't the same as allowing them to hurt you again. Think of a convicted murderer. You don't have to insist on hurting him out of revenge but you don't just turn him loose. You incarcerate him - not out of anger but for the utilitarian purpose of preventing him for doing it again. Then you put the bastard out of your mind so you can go on happily with the rest of your life.

[Godscreated]

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I don't think many here actually do hate the believer, there is a lot here that say terrible things about their beliefs, but I don't think its the believe itself they point those words to, well I hope not, that wouldn't be very intelligent at all.

---

My point was that some people just have their beliefs and even though those beliefs are terrible it's none of my business, but some people use their beliefs to justify hideous actions. So, I wonder if at that point I am justified in blaming the person instead of just the religion. Should people be held responsible for their actions even when they were driven by well meaning religious intentions based on their personal beliefs?

Hate only harms you, your hate has no real effect on the one you hate, so why do it. For those such as ISIS our hate want change them and could possibly inspire them.

GC

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You might want to start reading what's said a little closer and without a tilt to the bias. They're several here that hate Christians and they've said so.

GC

So let's have a quote so we know who you're talking about, and then let them explain themselves. Min doesn't count, he hates everyone.

I'm not going to go looking for those posts, if you do not believe me fine, if you do fine. I'm not trying to lie about this, but you be the judge.

GC

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If I had to hate someone, it wouldn't be for merely their beliefs but how they treat me. That's if I had to hate someone.

I don't literally mean to hate them. I just say it because I took a popular Christian phrase "hate the sin, not the sinner" and made it secular. I am trying to get a feel on how far a person can go action wise and I can still say "well, yea, but they're deluded by their beliefs. It's not their fault".
At what point does the personal responsibility kick in? I just...I have a bad habit of making excuses for people who do crappy things to me. Usually there's a pretty clear line, but when it comes to religion I have a harder time.

Why not have a discussion with them about how they make you feel they may not be aware of how you feel.

GC