The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Nay_Sayer]

Because we are part of the animal kingdom.

so you believe you are at the level of an ape?

No, but then again no one with any semblance of intelligence does.
 We do share a common ancestor, thanks for trollin, Please come again.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Because I studied Christianity as a devout believer for over 20 years before realizing it was bullshit.


An all-good, all-loving Gaud would not command the seizure and rape of a whole nation of virgin girls. There is no scenario where that behavior equals love, even for someone who "works in mysterious ways."


If you can convince yourself that such a thing must be moral just because Gaud did it and that he really still loves us even though his book says he likes to kill us in droves and have us raped, then I shudder to think what kind of men you must involve yourself with.

Can you quote me the verse where it says that He likes to kill us in droves and have us raped.

I just gave you a whole list. The rape thing is in Numbers. Gaud tells the Israelites to kill everyone but the virgin girls, whom they may keep as war spoils. That is rape. The rest of the list is mostly about killings that are either performed or commanded by Gaud. What more do you need?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Can you quote me the verse where it says that He likes to kill us in droves and have us raped.

I just gave you a whole list. The rape thing is in Numbers. Gaud tells the Israelites to kill everyone but the virgin girls, whom they may keep as war spoils. That is rape. The rest of the list is mostly about killings that are either performed or commanded by Gaud. What more do you need?

Some people are completely ignorant about their favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish and Arabian religious fairy tales.  Some only know that they include God, Jesus, Allah, and Mohammed.

[Rekeisha]

Can you quote me the verse where it says that He likes to kill us in droves and have us raped.

I just gave you a whole list. The rape thing is in Numbers. Gaud tells the Israelites to kill everyone but the virgin girls, whom they may keep as war spoils. That is rape. The rest of the list is mostly about killings that are either performed or commanded by Gaud. What more do you need?

None of those say that God received any pleasure in doing that. It does say in Eze 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

That list of scripture is a display of God's judgement. He has the ability, the right and obligation to do so. His goal is to make a people for himself and when people reject Him then they will receive his wrath because they are choosing evil. God will remove evil from the world either through giving them a new nature which is made available to all believer brought his death and resurrection when they repent of their sins and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or He will send them to Hell where they will be kept with all other beings that are evil for the rest of eternity. God's desire as it says in  2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Yet He will allow people to refuse Him, hold onto their sin, blindness and death. 

Ps 103 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. As a people with imperfect views of everything it is easy to misunderstand the gravity and evil of sin. What is amazing is that God has not removed all of humankind. That would be just but since He is a merciful and loving God He bears with us and seeks our good. He sacrificed and humbled himself in order that we might have an opportunity through repentance to be given His righteousness. He willingly took on the sin of humanity in order to pay for our sin. The God you are trying to construct in your imagination does not exist. The God of the Bible does exist and you will give an account to Him one day. That is why He sincerely wishes to cover your sin with His perfect sacrifice so that you will not have to take upon yourself the fullness of His wrath. 

[Redbeard The Pink]

I just gave you a whole list. The rape thing is in Numbers. Gaud tells the Israelites to kill everyone but the virgin girls, whom they may keep as war spoils. That is rape. The rest of the list is mostly about killings that are either performed or commanded by Gaud. What more do you need?

None of those say that God received any pleasure in doing that. It does say in Eze 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

That list of scripture is a display of God's judgement. He has the ability, the right and obligation to do so. His goal is to make a people for himself and when people reject Him then they will receive his wrath because they are choosing evil. God will remove evil from the world either through giving them a new nature which is made available to all believer brought his death and resurrection when they repent of their sins and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or He will send them to Hell where they will be kept with all other beings that are evil for the rest of eternity. God's desire as it says in  2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Yet He will allow people to refuse Him, hold onto their sin, blindness and death. 

Ps 103 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. As a people with imperfect views of everything it is easy to misunderstand the gravity and evil of sin. What is amazing is that God has not removed all of humankind. That would be just but since He is a merciful and loving God He bears with us and seeks our good. He sacrificed and humbled himself in order that we might have an opportunity through repentance to be given His righteousness. He willingly took on the sin of humanity in order to pay for our sin. The God you are trying to construct in your imagination does not exist. The God of the Bible does exist and you will give an account to Him one day. That is why He sincerely wishes to cover your sin with His perfect sacrifice so that you will not have to take upon yourself the fullness of His wrath. 

So what you're telling me is that rape and genocide are morally acceptable, so long as Gaud either commands it or does it himself. What horrendously dangerous logic.



In that case, Gaud's morality is completely arbitrary and subjective to his whim, and an objective moral standard STILL does not exist in the Universe, even by your own theology. Furthermore, it means that your Gaud is still a vindictive, judgmental monster who doles out punishments like rape, genocide, and eternal torture for even marginal offenses. If Gaud were a person running for office, would you vote for him? I sure wouldn't. If he were a super hero, would you want his help? I sure wouldn't.


Also, if Gaud has to do things he does not take pleasure in, then he is not all-powerful.

[Rekeisha]

None of those say that God received any pleasure in doing that. It does say in Eze 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

That list of scripture is a display of God's judgement. He has the ability, the right and obligation to do so. His goal is to make a people for himself and when people reject Him then they will receive his wrath because they are choosing evil. God will remove evil from the world either through giving them a new nature which is made available to all believer brought his death and resurrection when they repent of their sins and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or He will send them to Hell where they will be kept with all other beings that are evil for the rest of eternity. God's desire as it says in  2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Yet He will allow people to refuse Him, hold onto their sin, blindness and death. 

Ps 103 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. As a people with imperfect views of everything it is easy to misunderstand the gravity and evil of sin. What is amazing is that God has not removed all of humankind. That would be just but since He is a merciful and loving God He bears with us and seeks our good. He sacrificed and humbled himself in order that we might have an opportunity through repentance to be given His righteousness. He willingly took on the sin of humanity in order to pay for our sin. The God you are trying to construct in your imagination does not exist. The God of the Bible does exist and you will give an account to Him one day. That is why He sincerely wishes to cover your sin with His perfect sacrifice so that you will not have to take upon yourself the fullness of His wrath. 

So what you're telling me is that rape and genocide are morally acceptable, so long as Gaud either commands it or does it himself. What horrendously dangerous logic.



In that case, Gaud's morality is completely arbitrary and subjective to his whim, and an objective moral standard STILL does not exist in the Universe, even by your own theology. Furthermore, it means that your Gaud is still a vindictive, judgmental monster who doles out punishments like rape, genocide, and eternal torture for even marginal offenses. If Gaud were a person running for office, would you vote for him? I sure wouldn't. If he were a super hero, would you want his help? I sure wouldn't.


Also, if Gaud has to do things he does not take pleasure in, then he is not all-powerful.

No I did not say that nor was I telling you that I usually say what I mean to say. As you can see from the section that I quoted I was expressing that those verses were the judgement of God. God has no where in the bible said that rape or genocide is morally acceptable nor do those verse you provide prove that God sees them as good. He has actually stated the a murder should die and that a rapist of an engaged woman should also die. God has given humankind a way to live based on His unchanging nature. You have used your own  morals, which you have already confessed are subjective and not based on any absolute, and labeled those verses as a good thing in God's eyes.  Never has God ever explicitly or implicitly stated that He views rape or genocide as good. The bible as a whole shows how bent mankind is on disobeying and rejecting God's commands and ways. There is not a person, except Jesus the second person of the trinity and God incarnate, who was ever fully and totally good. Everyone has sinned everyone has turned from God and you can see it all in the pages of the bible. The book of Judges is an unwavering example of what people do when they do what is right in their own eyes. (jud 21:25). They had God's law but they followed it. 

How does doing things He has no pleasure in doing make him not all-powerful? What does pleasure have to do with power?

[Redbeard The Pink]

So what you're telling me is that rape and genocide are morally acceptable, so long as Gaud either commands it or does it himself. What horrendously dangerous logic.



In that case, Gaud's morality is completely arbitrary and subjective to his whim, and an objective moral standard STILL does not exist in the Universe, even by your own theology. Furthermore, it means that your Gaud is still a vindictive, judgmental monster who doles out punishments like rape, genocide, and eternal torture for even marginal offenses. If Gaud were a person running for office, would you vote for him? I sure wouldn't. If he were a super hero, would you want his help? I sure wouldn't.


Also, if Gaud has to do things he does not take pleasure in, then he is not all-powerful.

No I did not say that nor was I telling you that I usually say what I mean to say. As you can see from the section that I quoted I was expressing that those verses were the judgement of God. God has no where in the bible said that rape or genocide is morally acceptable nor do those verse you provide prove that God sees them as good. He has actually stated the a murder should die and that a rapist of an engaged woman should also die. God has given humankind a way to live based on His unchanging nature. You have used your own  morals, which you have already confessed are subjective and not based on any absolute, and labeled those verses as a good thing in God's eyes.  Never has God ever explicitly or implicitly stated that He views rape or genocide as good. The bible as a whole shows how bent mankind is on disobeying and rejecting God's commands and ways. There is not a person, except Jesus the second person of the trinity and God incarnate, who was ever fully and totally good. Everyone has sinned everyone has turned from God and you can see it all in the pages of the bible. The book of Judges is an unwavering example of what people do when they do what is right in their own eyes. (jud 21:25). They had God's law but they followed it. 

How does doing things He has no pleasure in doing make him not all-powerful? What does pleasure have to do with power?

Here's what you don't seem to be getting: Gaud repeatedly destroys humans in the Bible, and he commands them to destroy each other. Regardless of whether he wants to or not, that is how your Gaud metes out "justice." That means one of two things:


Either murder, genocide, and rape are morally acceptable punishments so long as Gaud commands them, or Gaud commands humans to take immoral actions to dish out his punishments.


If murder, rape, and genocide are immoral most of the time but moral when Gaud commands it, then Gaud's morality is subjective and not objective.


If murder, rape, and genocide are always immoral, then Gaud essentially commands his people to sin every time they carry out one of these "judgements" over a neighboring people. If Gaud has ever commanded us to be immoral, then he can't be the perfect and absolute source of all morality.


An all-powerful being would never have to do anything it didn't want to. If Gaud is judging us according to this system and commanding these awful punishments, it's either because he wants to or because he has to. If it's because he wants to, then he's an immoral monster who doesn't love us. If it's because he has to, then he is beholden to a set of rules, meaning he's not all-powerful and he's not the absolute source of all morals.

[robvalue]

I think you should win a stamina award Redbeard!

[Rekeisha]

No I did not say that nor was I telling you that I usually say what I mean to say. As you can see from the section that I quoted I was expressing that those verses were the judgement of God. God has no where in the bible said that rape or genocide is morally acceptable nor do those verse you provide prove that God sees them as good. He has actually stated the a murder should die and that a rapist of an engaged woman should also die. God has given humankind a way to live based on His unchanging nature. You have used your own  morals, which you have already confessed are subjective and not based on any absolute, and labeled those verses as a good thing in God's eyes.  Never has God ever explicitly or implicitly stated that He views rape or genocide as good. The bible as a whole shows how bent mankind is on disobeying and rejecting God's commands and ways. There is not a person, except Jesus the second person of the trinity and God incarnate, who was ever fully and totally good. Everyone has sinned everyone has turned from God and you can see it all in the pages of the bible. The book of Judges is an unwavering example of what people do when they do what is right in their own eyes. (jud 21:25). They had God's law but they followed it. 

How does doing things He has no pleasure in doing make him not all-powerful? What does pleasure have to do with power?

Here's what you don't seem to be getting: Gaud repeatedly destroys humans in the Bible, and he commands them to destroy each other. Regardless of whether he wants to or not, that is how your Gaud metes out "justice." That means one of two things:


Either murder, genocide, and rape are morally acceptable punishments so long as Gaud commands them, or Gaud commands humans to take immoral actions to dish out his punishments.


If murder, rape, and genocide are immoral most of the time but moral when Gaud commands it, then Gaud's morality is subjective and not objective.


If murder, rape, and genocide are always immoral, then Gaud essentially commands his people to sin every time they carry out one of these "judgements" over a neighboring people. If Gaud has ever commanded us to be immoral, then he can't be the perfect and absolute source of all morality.


An all-powerful being would never have to do anything it didn't want to. If Gaud is judging us according to this system and commanding these awful punishments, it's either because he wants to or because he has to. If it's because he wants to, then he's an immoral monster who doesn't love us. If it's because he has to, then he is beholden to a set of rules, meaning he's not all-powerful and he's not the absolute source of all morals.

is killing equivalent to murder? when a person is put to death by the justice system because of his/her crimes against humanity is that murder or justice? What is the just punishment for a murderer? 

God explicitly says that murder it wrong, rape is wrong therefor genocide is wrong. He also says to that he does treat a person unfairly based on race, sex, class et cetera. God own everything and person and the only reason anyone of use exist it because of His will. He is so merciful and slow to anger He will allow you to speak lies about him and hasn't taken you out.  He allowed me to blaspheme his name and has forgiven me. 

Also it takes more power and self-control to do what is necessary and right no matter your feelings on the matter. To have all power doesn't mean you use it in every situation. If you have ever observed a wise person who is full of knowledge they are not always letting everyone know how much they know. He set aside what He could do, which would be wiping all human kind out because we are all corrupt in our thinking and actions. In order to redeem people from every nation, language, class, and tongue. So, that people may understand who He is and how wonderful and loving He was to step off his throne. To make himself of no reputation so that He may live a life like ours and die a death that we deserve. God is not evil but one that is both just and merciful. Lies about Him are of no help to the one who rejects Him. They will not aid them when judgement comes but it takes humility to see God for who He truly is. He is both amazing and good and will send his wrath against those who cling to their evil ways.

[Redbeard The Pink]

is killing equivalent to murder?

Yes.

when a person is put to death by the justice system because of his/her crimes against humanity is that murder or justice?

That would be murder.

What is the just punishment for a murderer? 

Justice, like morality, is a human concept that is subjective to the scenario, culture, etc. There is no objectively "just" punishment for murder, though incarceration is certainly more human than the death penalty and does more or less the same job.

God explicitly says that murder it wrong,

Yeah, and then he orders the Israelites to kill other nations in droves. That never struck you as odd?

rape is wrong

Technically the Bible doesn't say that.

therefor genocide is wrong.

Not only does that logic not follow, but religiously-motivated genocide is condoned and celebrated in the Bible, especially the Old Testament.

 He also says to that he does treat a person unfairly based on race, sex, class et cetera.

Wow...language is really starting to fail you, isn't it?


I think I understand what your'e saying, and no, the Bible is anything but an egalitarian document. It condones the purchase and use of slaves from foreign nations, it treats women as property rather than people, and it places both slaves and women in a class that is distinctly below and submissive to free, Jewish men. That is not a message of classless equality.

God own everything and person and the only reason anyone of use exist it because of His will.

Prove it.

He is so merciful and slow to anger He will allow you to speak lies about him and hasn't taken you out.

Maybe that's because he doesn't exist.

  He allowed me to blaspheme his name and has forgiven me. 

Maybe that's because he doesn't exist.

Also it takes more power and self-control to do what is necessary and right no matter your feelings on the matter.

Self control? You mean like when he allegedly raged out and destroyed virtually every living thing on Earth?

To have all power doesn't mean you use it in every situation. If you have ever observed a wise person who is full of knowledge they are not always letting everyone know how much they know. He set aside what He could do, which would be wiping all human kind out because we are all corrupt in our thinking and actions.

He set aside the wiping out of humanity? How so? One of his first acts as Gaud was to nearly annihilate life on Earth in a global flood. That's hardly setting aside the wiping out of humanity.

In order to redeem people from every nation, language, class, and tongue. So, that people may understand who He is and how wonderful and loving He was to step off his throne. To make himself of no reputation so that He may live a life like ours and die a death that we deserve. God is not evil but one that is both just and merciful. Lies about Him are of no help to the one who rejects Him. They will not aid them when judgement comes but it takes humility to see God for who He truly is. He is both amazing and good and will send his wrath against those who cling to their evil ways.

Seeing Gaud takes imagination, not humility.