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March 26, 2015 at 9:04 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 9:07 pm by Mystic.)
(March 26, 2015 at 8:49 pm)Alex K Wrote: I can't really make sense of that. What are the signs in the soul and the spiritual horizons and how do they prove anything?
I'll make a post about that tomorrow.
(March 26, 2015 at 9:03 pm)professor Wrote: I understand your concepts.
Why is the Koran totally different than the Bible which preceded it by up to thousands of years?
I know Christians read some verses selectively while ignoring others. There are some parts of the Bible that agrees with the Quran and other parts that oppose it, because, from my understanding, it's been corrupted and is not the actually full teachings of the Prophets.
Cor. 6:9, Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
If unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, that leaves only the righteous.
So you are saying, the many places in the Bible that say, all have sinned, there are none righteous- no not one, are wrong?
So the wrongs that are done by people are just glossed over by God.
It seems Islam omits the Justice of God, which requires a price to be paid for wrong.
His standard is PERFECTION. A place no one with the blood of Adam has attained.
Who is going to pay the debt of wrong for the Muslim?
Only someone perfect can pay it.
I believe most people are good people that God appreciates and loves, and that includes most Atheists. I am not of the opinion that God only accepts perfection but that he accepts various degrees of goodness.
March 26, 2015 at 10:16 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 10:21 pm by JuliaL.)
(March 26, 2015 at 7:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
This is not a specific argument, but a general argument to the general structure of my religion, and why I believe the Quran is true as it's the only holy book to emphasize on the following wisdom in a majestic, thorough, and from many angles manner:
It's by logic that we know there exist the best of humans who reached sublime ranks and raced ahead of others in good deeds. It's by logic that we know these people would be special in God's eyes. They being guided and their path being straight, are, the best people equipped to lead humanity.
The theme of what God does with his best servants is in Quran, and the way he honored them, speaks of a praise and exalted grace of God, mercy, and love, and God is ever bountiful! This praise of God on how he treats his best friends and masters upon creations, has a hidden wisdom, that is manifest through how God actually acted with many of these honorable people, and this how God proves the basis of his religion.
The pure sinless servants of God are those who God after initiating in the unseen fulfillment of God's words, brings a descended form of their path, and wisdom, and guidance to the nations.
God sent Prophets with the ultimate mission to bring humanity out of the darkness to the light and conduct themselves with justice, and he sent the final religion that it dominates all religions. But the pure religion and the truth of it and the wisdom, is not known to all, but rather, the remembrance is safeguarded through an Imam who has a perfect understanding of the religion and the wisdom revealed to Mohammad. That religion is safeguarded from corruption.
The Quran talks about witnesses from each people, and states we will be called with a witness that will witness against us that was among us, and another verses say we will be called with our Imam.
Ultimately, God always wanted people to accept his Mastership and authority and guidance, through his chosen ones, so it makes sense he will safeguard a chosen one among his creation, for the end of times, when humanity will accept the truth and follow it.
The Mahdi has been said to be from the Ahlulbayt, because the Ahlulbayt is how God wanted to bring the cause, the affair, and unity of the chosen successors of Mohammad, so he put them in offspring from one another, like he did in the past with his chosen ones, and made them a chosen family in which we love not individually but all together, and tied that love with the Messenger.
The wisdom of him being from Ahlulbayt is in Quran, in the verses about chosen offspring and chosen families, so God made this wisdom a proof upon all people.
As well, he showed that he bestowed a special type of leadership that takes place through his command, that is different from the leadership bestowed upon all Prophets by virtue of them being Prophets.
This leadership shows the way in the unseen, the states to follow, the glorification, the inward states of Salah and it's disciplines, and other revelation of good deeds. The Imams having been revealed the good deeds, manifest degrees of it and degrees of states to follow, appropriate to each state of the follower.
The Imam remains the guide through out the journey, even, after we reach the station of purity and annihilation into the light of God and his Messenger.
This guidance is known as the companionship of the Messenger, "O would I have taken with the Messenger a path", and according to hadiths, this is taking Ali as a Wali as well.
This guidance also has a wisdom in Quran, and takes belief in the "Unseen".
Allah spreads his light through the Imam, the friends of God turn to that very face of God, and trickle down their guidance to others, which trickles down to others.
This guidance therefore is of essential wisdom, and God has never left the earth without a Guide, a Witness, an Imam, out of wisdom. And this wisdom is one of the proofs of the Quran and the upright religion.
Other than your own arrogance and the pride of other believers and that of your God, what makes you think you know what is 'good?'
If the God of your God disagrees, how would you know?
What does shit smell like to a fly? Lunch?
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
March 27, 2015 at 4:29 am (This post was last modified: March 27, 2015 at 4:30 am by robvalue.)
Pretty sure Allah does not like atheists.
Did you notice how he says about a hundred times in the Quran how non believers will face a fiery doom?
Christianity: "My religion is true, all others are false, non believers are going to hell. I got this amazing book which is the word of god. Only this book, others are fake."
Islam: "My religion is true, all others are false, non believers are going to hell. I got this amazing book which is the word of god. Only this book, others are fake."
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
People can use all the mental gymnastics they want, to put forth arguments about why Islam is true but, at the end of the day, I just can't take a book seriously that implies that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves round it and states that Allah holds the sky up, so it doesn't come crashing down on us...
Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah , to the people, is Kind and Merciful.
March 27, 2015 at 5:04 am (This post was last modified: March 27, 2015 at 5:04 am by downbeatplumb.)
(March 26, 2015 at 7:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This is not a specific argument, but a general argument to the general structure of my religion, and why I believe the Quran is true as it's the only holy book to emphasize on the following wisdom in a majestic, thorough, and from many angles manner:
It's by logic that we know there exist the best of humans who reached sublime ranks and raced ahead of others in good deeds. It's by logic that we know these people would be special in God's eyes. They being guided and their path being straight, are, the best people equipped to lead humanity.
The theme of what God does with his best servants is in Quran, and the way he honored them, speaks of a praise and exalted grace of God, mercy, and love, and God is ever bountiful! This praise of God on how he treats his best friends and masters upon creations, has a hidden wisdom, that is manifest through how God actually acted with many of these honorable people, and this how God proves the basis of his religion.
The pure sinless servants of God are those who God after initiating in the unseen fulfillment of God's words, brings a descended form of their path, and wisdom, and guidance to the nations.
God sent Prophets with the ultimate mission to bring humanity out of the darkness to the light and conduct themselves with justice, and he sent the final religion that it dominates all religions. But the pure religion and the truth of it and the wisdom, is not known to all, but rather, the remembrance is safeguarded through an Imam who has a perfect understanding of the religion and the wisdom revealed to Mohammad. That religion is safeguarded from corruption.
The Quran talks about witnesses from each people, and states we will be called with a witness that will witness against us that was among us, and another verses say we will be called with our Imam.
Ultimately, God always wanted people to accept his Mastership and authority and guidance, through his chosen ones, so it makes sense he will safeguard a chosen one among his creation, for the end of times, when humanity will accept the truth and follow it.
The Mahdi has been said to be from the Ahlulbayt, because the Ahlulbayt is how God wanted to bring the cause, the affair, and unity of the chosen successors of Mohammad, so he put them in offspring from one another, like he did in the past with his chosen ones, and made them a chosen family in which we love not individually but all together, and tied that love with the Messenger.
The wisdom of him being from Ahlulbayt is in Quran, in the verses about chosen offspring and chosen families, so God made this wisdom a proof upon all people.
As well, he showed that he bestowed a special type of leadership that takes place through his command, that is different from the leadership bestowed upon all Prophets by virtue of them being Prophets.
This leadership shows the way in the unseen, the states to follow, the glorification, the inward states of Salah and it's disciplines, and other revelation of good deeds. The Imams having been revealed the good deeds, manifest degrees of it and degrees of states to follow, appropriate to each state of the follower.
The Imam remains the guide through out the journey, even, after we reach the station of purity and annihilation into the light of God and his Messenger.
This guidance is known as the companionship of the Messenger, "O would I have taken with the Messenger a path", and according to hadiths, this is taking Ali as a Wali as well.
This guidance also has a wisdom in Quran, and takes belief in the "Unseen".
Allah spreads his light through the Imam, the friends of God turn to that very face of God, and trickle down their guidance to others, which trickles down to others.
This guidance therefore is of essential wisdom, and God has never left the earth without a Guide, a Witness, an Imam, out of wisdom. And this wisdom is one of the proofs of the Quran and the upright religion.
I find all of that very unconvincing.
Quote:It's by logic that we know there exist the best of humans who reached sublime ranks and raced ahead of others in good deeds. It's by logic that we know these people would be special in God's eyes. They being guided and their path being straight, are, the best people equipped to lead humanity.
Particularly this bit.
Because I can tell you that logic does not tell you that at all. Only wishfull thinking and self delusion.
I was just wondering one thing: why would a perfect, omnipotent god need servants? Is he also omnilazy or something?
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
Mystic, can you answer the question I posed about Justice?
Perfect justice demands a price to be paid for wrongs.
The Koran expresses the opposite of the Bible about this.
So you are saying the Bible is corrupted in all verses pointing out the unrighteousness that is pandemic in mankind?
Doesn't this strike you as odd?
You mentioned the Mahdi (the coming Muslim conqueror, whose sign is the sun rising in the west),
who in the Bible is the Antichrist.
Again, the Koran and the Bible are opposite.
The logo for BHO,(the US president) a Muslim, is the rising sun, who comes out of the West, and whose name means-
"he with us" in Farsi, is that antichrist- he will perish at the 2nd Coming.
(March 27, 2015 at 8:02 am)professor Wrote: Again, the Koran and the Bible are opposite.
Yeah - to everything.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
![[Image: NnoGhN1.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com%2FNnoGhN1.gif)
