General argument for Islam.

[Mystic]

I think you are being irrational. It's obvious there is going exist someone who is the best so far in goodness and honor. And if you believe in God and recognize the nature of goodness is to act upon it and we are blameworthy on evil only because it's possible to avoid it, then surely there exists some people who did only good.

The logic I am presenting is found here in the following verses:


وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ هُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ {31}
That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - is aware, seeing.
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ {32}
 35:32] Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; so of them (ie. our servants) is he who is unjust to himself, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence.
 



God being aware of his servants says among his servants is a person who is unjust to himself. Among his servants is who takes a middle course. And among them is who is foremost in good deeds, he excels all in good deeds.

The chosen ones are those who are foremost in good deeds, those who race ahead of people in good deeds. 

The foremost people are those who God sees as special among his servants. 

Now the question, is what does God do with such special people? 

[paulpablo]

I think you are being irrational. It's obvious there is going exist someone who is the best so far in goodness and honor. And if you believe in God and recognize the nature of goodness is to act upon it and we are blameworthy on evil only because it's possible to avoid it, then surely there exists some people who did only good.

The logic I am presenting is found here in the following verses:


وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ هُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ {31}
That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - is aware, seeing.
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ {32}
 35:32] Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; so of them (ie. our servants) is he who is unjust to himself, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence.
 



God being aware of his servants says among his servants is a person who is unjust to himself. Among his servants is who takes a middle course. And among them is who is foremost in good deeds, he excels all in good deeds.

The chosen ones are those who are foremost in good deeds, those who race ahead of people in good deeds. 

The foremost people are those who God sees as special among his servants. 

Now the question, is what does God do with such special people? 

1) I don't think I'm being irrational.
2) Why do you assume god exists.
3) Why do you assume he cares about people.
4) Why do you assume you have perfect judgement on who is good and bad. virtuous or non virtuous?
5)Why are you showing me parts of a 1400 year old book as proof of logical conclusions?

[Mystic]

2) Why do you assume god exists.

This has been discussed in this thread a little bit and I through out the years here, have discussed this.

3) Why do you assume he cares about people.

This has already been discussed in this thread and through out the years here.

4) Why do you assume you have perfect judgement on who is good and bad. virtuous or non virtuous?

I never said I do. But I know there certainly have existed people who excelled others in goodness and virtue.

5)Why are you showing me parts of a 1400 year old book as proof of logical conclusions?

I'm showing that this logic I'm emphasizing on, has been emphasized in Quran as well.  I didn't state to believe in the logic because it is in Quran.

Just that the Quran wants humanity to reflect upon such logic.

---

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I'm going to sleep. Pray I don't wake up Atheist  .

[paulpablo]

So if I wrote a religious book and it said "There will be someone out there who can run faster than any other human runs".

You would think this is amazing and has to come from god because it's accurate and logical?

Also it's debatable what is good and if you should follow someone who is good.

When people say a person is good it's usually because they're following rules that are believed to be good at the time.  Or because they are generally good for humanity.

If what is good is what's good for humanity then you run into lots of complications when saying this person is good therefore do what he does.

The inventor of vaccination maybe considered to be good because of the countless lives he saved, what he did for humanity is amazing, but his good deeds are partly based on the good luck of being intelligent enough to discover what he discovered and to be at the right place and time to do it.

In theory Hitler could have done a good thing for humanity, if hypothetically speaking he killed a Jewish person who ended up doing something which resulted in the deaths of billions of people.  But what Hitler did was horrible and he had intentions of saving lives in that way, it might might have been an inconsequential result of his actions.

You might say someone with the best intentions is the most virtuous but that could result in horrific results, again Hitler probably thought he was virtuous but he was trying to wipe out the Jews, the same as Christians probably thought they were being virtuous when they killed witches.

If someone who follows or sets certain rules is considered good then that changes from time to time and circumstance to circumstance.  

I find the thread title misleading because the argument in this thread isn't general, it's very specific.  You're basically saying there's a specific thing the quran is definitely right about and it's logical.  But to even begin to consider this argument you already have to believe in God and that the quran is true, in which case you should have really titled the thread "An argument for Islam that you will find convincing if you're already a Muslim".

[professor]

Logic tells me nobody is good enough to merit Heaven.
Logic tells me self- righteousness is a delusion.

[dyresand]

Logic tells me nobody is good enough to merit Heaven.
Logic tells me self- righteousness is a delusion.

Self- righteousness makes people look like a ass. 
also humanity as of now deserves something better than heaven just saying. 
I wouldn't want to worship something or some being forever. 

[Cyberman]

There is only one truth. Prophets try to get us to follow it as much as possible, they being free from any falsehood.

Well, well, this smiley is useful, after all!

No, don't laugh. He's saying that I cannot tell a lie, so when I say I am a prophet you have no choice but to know it's true.

[jesus_wept]

When you talk about wisdom, guidance and laws in the Quran, do you mean things like how to treat your slaves and when to strike your wife?

[Mystic]

Paulpablo

Goodness to be me derives from a living reality, the Lord of the worlds.  Although we differ often in moralities, it doesn't change that there is source to goodness and especially, the good intention. As objective morality surely has to exist where goodness to be anything but a delusion,  it makes sense pure servants of God would have objective morality and be guided towards it.

It's obvious if you accept God, that there is infinite ranks to goodness, and that surely there is some people upon a very high rank from among his creation.

The question then is what does God do with these special people? What does he specially chose them for?

Does he bring them out to the people, manifest their virtue, raise their remembrance or does he leave them that people follow misguided leaders and falsehood?

Does he provide guidance through them and use them or not?

This is the next logical question.  I think by God's praiseworthy nature, we can know he would make such people examples to follow, leaders to incline to, pure servants to love, and exalt their mention.

I argue this is because God is graceful and merciful to his creation,  and wishes to make such people a mercy towards his creatures. I argue because God wishes to bring a balance against the misguidance and counter balance to the evil and the falsehood.

In my argument, you don't have to assume the Quran is true. You look at the wisdom present in Quran, think about it logically, find it exalted, and find it unique towards the holy book or faiths that are offshoots of the holy book.

[The Grand Nudger]

Goodness to be me derives from a living reality, the Lord of the worlds.

"To you", but "to you" is insufficient reason -for us-.

Although we differ often in moralities, it doesn't change that there is source to goodness and especially, the good intention.

The flip side of that coin, if we're talking about sources...is that regardless of what that source  is or may be, and regardless of what either of us would put in that camp..the important bit is that it, goodness, exists.  If the source of goodness were a deep black pit full of demons....it would still be goodness, eh? Goodness may (and does) seem to flow from many sources. So even without your claim, we're at no loss for explanation or sources...when it comes to goodness. Are we?

As objective morality surely has to exist where goodness to be anything but a delusion,

You have not established either that objective morality exists, or that it must exist for goodness to be other than a delusion, or that if it were a delusion that it even matters.

If goodness is not a delusion, then objective morality must exist
goodness is not a delusion
therefore objective morality exists

If goodness is not a delusion, then bigfoot must exist
goodness is not a delusion
therefore bigfoot exists.

I show you this so that you understand both that and why the statements you made cannot, logically, in the manner presented, be expected to yield truth. But over and above all of that, so what...so what if goodness were a delusion...what then? We don;t rule things out because we don't like the way they sound...do we?

it makes sense pure servants of God would have objective morality and be guided towards it.

It does not "make sense" from anything discussed previous, you are either omitting a step you performed, or you did not perform the step.  Show your work.

It's obvious if you accept God, that there is infinite ranks to goodness, and that surely there is some people upon a very high rank from among his creation.

as obvious as it is that if those "ranks of goodness" exist..god still isn't a requirement, nor does god modify those ranks, nor do those ranks have anything to do with any creation.  

In my argument, you don't have to assume the Quran is true.

Oh..you mean, I don't have to assume that your god exists?  Seems like it, in fact, that seems to be the only assumption you insists be left intact with no scrutiny.   Look at the bolded bit above......

 You look at the wisdom present in Quran,

Like?

think about it logically, find it exalted, and find it unique towards the holy book or faiths that are offshoots of the holy book.

-and if we think about it logically, and do not find it exalted or unique?  What then? -And so what if we did find it to be both of those things...neither will make it true. This is the really mystifying bit, to me. Some of us don't see it the way you see it (you understand that, you made mention of it)....but even if we did, it won't be any more true or accurate than the tortoise and the hare. These are your arguments? Presented in a way that cannot gaurantee truth, and comprised of items which - even if true, could not yield the conclusion you wish to arrive upon? That's doesn't meet my bar for argument, or logic Mystic.