Eternal the originator of time - proof.

[rexbeccarox]

Prove that your eternal cause(God) is eternal and doesn't itself have a cause.

I already did.

Holy crap, you did????  That's amazing!  Where's your Nobel Prize?

[Mystic]

No one wants to address the argument in the opening post it seems.

[Alex K]

No one wants to address the argument in the opening post it seems.

I have. It is not established that a cause is required

[Iroscato]

So I'm gonna type this rubbing my temple in a futile attempt at soothing the pulsating vein there. I'm also going to spell it out very clearly and concisely, as this is about the trillionth time I've seen this turd of a statement in a different dress.
Who. Made. The. Creator?
If it exists, it must have come from somewhere. That which has intelligence must also have origin. And please, please don't say he exists outside of time and space, because that absolutely does not address the problem in any way. He must have had a beginning, or a time when he was at a lesser form than that which he is now. Is he perhaps a being from another universe, who has learned the art of making universes? That could go...some small distance towards making the argument even the tiniest bit feasible, astounding logical leaps needed aside.
Where did this hypothetical creator come from? C'mon, let's hash this out, on this day, on this forum, once and for all.

[Mystic]

I have. It is not established that a cause is required

That's attacking the conclusion, not the argument. Try again.

[Alex K]

I have. It is not established that a cause is required

That's attacking the conclusion, not the argument. Try again.

Wasn't "effect needs cause" a premise? If not then what is your argument exactly. It's confusingly written because there are several paragraphs and I don't understand how they relate

[Mystic]

That's attacking the conclusion, not the argument. Try again.

Wasn't "effect needs cause" a premise? If not then what is your argument exactly. It's confusingly written because there are several paragraphs and I don't understand how they relate

That was one part of the argument. But the conclusion doesn't rely on it. Because there is two parts to initial part of the argument. One then talks about effect and cause. The other part talks about time and it's limited nature.  Then the conclusions follow from there. (ie. the first point of time came into being, ie time came into being).

So you are saying effects don't require a cause?

[robvalue]

I think quantum mechanics heavily blurs the line between effects and causes, wouldn't you say so Alex? (Psst, agree with me!)

[bennyboy]

What you have done is said "Existence represents an infinite regression, which is paradoxical. Therefore, we need a philosophical quantity, X, which solves this paradox."

The problem is that you insist X must be separate from whatever exists. However, there is now a new system: "whatever exists + X," and you anyway need to explain how this new system originated. You will need an infinite regression of Gods.

There is a debating term that exactly defines what you are doing: special pleading. This is your argument: "Everything must be created, so it must all have been created by something which does not need to be created." So your first thesis: "everything must be created" is falsified, since you are allowing (asserting, actually) that at least one thing doesn't need to be created, and so you NO LONGER NEED to invent a new entity. You can just say, for example, "Every cause needs in turn another cause. Therefore the universe must have existed forever." No new quantity X required.

[Mystic]

I think quantum mechanics heavily blurs the line between effects and causes, wouldn't you say so Alex? (Psst, agree with me!)

Even if I were to concede for the sake of argument, than on smaller scale, effects occur without a cause (instead of saying these causes are yet unknown by science), still the over all effects in endless universe, all requires a cause, therefore the argument can be modified and seen in this light, and it would show the universe is not of infinite chain of cause and effects still.