Why did God let people think demons cause epilepsy?

[Razzle]

@ Razzle: Yes, you did say all and always in the OP.

No, read it again and note the context in which the word "always" appears. (Also note that "all manner of" does not mean "all".) I didn't say the Bible says all diseases are always caused by demons. I said it neglects to point out that certain diseases are not always caused by them, which is a highly misleading omission for the creator of the universe to make in a book that would be read by thousands of years' worth of highly uneducated and irrational people.

While modern Westerners rarely interpret the Bible as saying all such symptoms are always caused by possession, that's only because we already know before we read it that they are usually improved or even eliminated by medication, which would not be the case if demons were in control of the brain. It's common knowledge to us, so it's very easy to interpret the passages that you point to as meaning what you think they mean.

But think of people who don't have the benefit of that knowledge, as most of humanity has not since the time of Jesus. To them, having the creator of the universe come to Earth in person and inspire/dictate a holy book for us to read, giving examples of diseases such as epilepsy and psychosis being caused by demons without any examples or mention of any other causes, has often lead to them assuming that there are no other causes. The passages you cite are too open to interpretation to prevent that from happening, which is proved by the fact that it has happened and does happen throughout history and in uneducated parts of the world today.

The first one you present, Matthew 4 ("People brought to him all who suffered with various illnesses and afflictions, those who had seizures, paralytics, and those possessed by demons, and he healed them"), comes the closest to being an adequate rebuttal. It does at least seem to suggest that one of the conditions I'm talking about, epilepsy, is not always caused by possession, by listing them separately. However, it's not the sort of thing you'd necessarily notice unless looking for evidence about exactly that question, which you're not going to do unless you already have at least an inkling that epilepsy is not always caused by possession and are interested in the issue.

If as an uneducated villager, you want to know about demon possession, you look to the passages dedicated to it, like those labelled "Jesus heals a demon-possessed man". Those would be good places for God to place his medical disclaimers. You probably don't scour the New Testament for any casual reference and analyse the construction of sentences in your translation to work out whether epilepsy and possession are synonymous, unless you already have reason to question that specific issue, which most people throughout history have not. That line is not good enough to prevent exorcisms of epileptics - if it were, we simply wouldn't have epileptics being exorcised by Christians, ever. The even bigger problem with it as a response to this criticism, is that it only specifically mentions epilepsy, out of all the conditions that get mistaken for possession. It does absolutely nothing for schizophrenics or others acting in ways similar to the man healed in Mark 5. 

Your other two passages merely suggest that not all disease in general is caused by possession, and I never claimed that all diseases are victims of this phenomenon anyway - only the specific kinds of diseases and symptoms that are associated with demons by the Bible.

[robvalue]

Any reference that someone "might have demon possession", even when combined with actual regular conditions, is necessarily an argument from ignorance.

I hope people would agree that fallacious arguments like this should not be part of medical diagnosis.

The bible contains the ignorance of its time. To try and pretend otherwise involves contorting your brain so hard that you just convince yourself it doesn't say what it says.

[John V]

No, read it again and note the context in which the word "always" appears. (Also note that "all manner of" does not mean "all".) I didn't say the Bible says all diseases are always caused by demons. I said it neglects to point out that certain diseases are not always caused by them, which is a highly misleading omission for the creator of the universe to make in a book that would be read by thousands of years' worth of highly uneducated and irrational people.

And I showed passages in which diseases are listed separately from demon possession. So, yes, the Bible does point out that diseases are not always caused by demon possession.

While modern Westerners rarely interpret the Bible as saying all such symptoms are always caused by possession, that's only because we already know before we read it that they are usually improved or even eliminated by medication, which would not be the case if demons were in control of the brain. It's common knowledge to us, so it's very easy to interpret the passages that you point to as meaning what you think they mean.

The meaning of them is clear. Demon possession is not equivalent to disease. You're anti-Bible and refuse to admit the clear reading of those verses.

But think of people who don't have the benefit of that knowledge, as most of humanity has not since the time of Jesus. To them, having the creator of the universe come to Earth in person and inspire/dictate a holy book for us to read, giving examples of diseases such as epilepsy and psychosis being caused by demons without any examples or mention of any other causes, has often lead to them assuming that there are no other causes.

Except, the Bible does list demon possession and disease as separate things.

The passages you cite are too open to interpretation to prevent that from happening, which is proved by the fact that it has happened and does happen throughout history and in uneducated parts of the world today.

And if they try to cast out a demon as demonstrated in the Bible, no harm is done.

The first one you present, Matthew 4 ("People brought to him all who suffered with various illnesses and afflictions, those who had seizures, paralytics, and those possessed by demons, and he healed them"), comes the closest to being an adequate rebuttal. It does at least seem to suggest that one of the conditions I'm talking about, epilepsy, is not always caused by possession, by listing them separately. However, it's not the sort of thing you'd necessarily notice unless looking for evidence about exactly that question, which you're not going to do unless you already have at least an inkling that epilepsy is not always caused by possession and are interested in the issue.

Where would someone get the idea that the Bible says epilepsy is always caused by possession when the applicable passages are so clear?

[polar bear]

Any reference that someone "might have demon possession", even when combined with actual regular conditions, is necessarily an argument from ignorance.

I hope people would agree that fallacious arguments like this should not be part of medical diagnosis.

The bible contains the ignorance of its time. To try and pretend otherwise involves contorting your brain so hard that you just convince yourself it doesn't say what it says.

As always, you put it better than I was trying to say.  Yes, I agree!

[Razzle]

alpha male, as I've already explained, I'm not saying and have never said that the Bible claims disease in general is caused by demon possession. Just that it gives examples of certain diseases, or rather, certain symptoms of numerous diseases, being caused by it, and most importantly, that it doesn't bother with respect to some of those diseases to point out that there can also be other causes of them, and that other causes are by far more common. 

Can you, for example, give me a single example of a passage that gives an example of somebody suffering from clear and common symptoms of schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, schizoaffective disorder or bipolar disorder, that does not attribute those symptoms to either demonic possession, or (in the case of many of God's prophets and favoured individuals) to God or angels actually speaking to them? There are cases where all those symptoms are attributed to spiritual forces, and I can't think of a single verse that could reasonably be expected to prevent people from concluding as they have at various times throughout history that those symptoms are always or usually caused by external spiritual forces. Would it be so hard to mention that "hey, most people who say they're hearing voices or have demons inside them, don't need to repent or be exorcised, they have a medical problem." Why would God NOT do that? He knew people would assume what they've often assumed after reading the Bible, and that research into the real causes and treatments would be delayed as a result, right?

As for why I don't accept your argument that the Bible makes it sufficiently clear that epilepsy is not always caused by possession, I've already explained that. If you don't disagree with my reasoning, feel free to explain why, but without knowing specifically why you disagree, I could only repeat myself.

[John V]

alpha male, as I've already explained, I'm not saying and have never said that the Bible claims disease in general is caused by demon possession. Just that  it gives examples of certain diseases, or rather, certain symptoms of numerous diseases, being caused by it, and most importantly, that it doesn't bother with respect to some of those diseases to point out that there can also be other causes of them, and that other causes are by far more common. 

I've already noted that the cases of casting out of demons occurred within a few years. It's easy to conclude that other causes are far more common.

Can you, for example, give me a single example of a passage that gives an example of somebody suffering from clear and common symptoms of schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, schizoaffective disorder or bipolar disorder, that does not attribute those symptoms to either demonic possession, or (in the case of many of God's prophets and favoured individuals) to God or angels actually speaking to them? There are cases where all those symptoms are attributed to spiritual forces, and I can't think of a single verse that could reasonably be expected to prevent people from concluding as they have at various times throughout history that those symptoms are always or usually caused by external spiritual forces. Would it be so hard to mention that "hey, most people who say they're hearing voices or have demons inside them, don't need to repent or be exorcised, they have a medical problem." Why would God NOT do that? He knew people would assume what they've often assumed after reading the Bible, and that research into the real causes and treatments would be delayed as a result, right?

Huh? Are you saying that scientists delayed research into certain disorders because they believed that those things were caused by demon possession? I find that hard to believe.

As for why I don't accept your argument that the Bible makes it sufficiently clear that epilepsy is not always caused by possession, I've already explained that. If you don't disagree with my reasoning, feel free to explain why, but without knowing specifically why you disagree, I could only repeat myself.

Your argument seems to merely be that people are sloppy readers. The Bible can be difficult to understand in parts and requires careful consideration. As Peter says:

2 Peter 3
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Personally I don't blame the text when people miss parts of it and go beyond it in other parts. That's user error.

[Razzle]

Hi alpha, I'm having trouble with a recurring eye complaint at the moment, which makes forum use difficult and painful, but with any luck I'll be responding again within the week.

-Raz

[Cyberman]

Probably a demon.

[Anomalocaris]

A question for Christians.

Exorcism of demons is mentioned in several Bible verses, and I know most Christians would say that's because demon possession is a real phenomenon. However, most Christians in developed nations no longer attribute all manner of diseases, especially neurological diseases like epilepsy and psychotic illnesses, to demons in the vast majority of cases. So presumably, most of you believe that most sufferers of such conditions who are having torturous and sometimes deadly exorcisms performed on them in Africa, by people pointing to Jesus' healing of demon-possessed people who were symptomatically indistinguishable from epileptics, are not possessed and should see doctors instead.

So why did God allow verses like that to end up in the Bible without clarifying that a) it's not always demons (or the result of sin, a related belief about some illnesses that people get from the Bible) and b) if you must exorcise a demon, don't hurt the person. He knew toddlers would be getting tortured to death as a result of the miracles as they are described in the New Testament, right? 

Because God is always suspiciously exactly as dim as the dimmer bulbs of any age?

[FreeTony]

Still number 1 on FSTDT:

http://www.ministeringdeliverance.com/ph...13&start=7

"Leviathon is a spirit I have battled as well. It was a hard battle but was won. It was about four months or more ago. My wife and I were in McDonalds and were having a conversation with an angel and Leviathon had come up. I told the angel that i wanted to fight this demon and he said I could. On the way back to the hotel I asked the angel if he could bring the demon to a predestinated place and he said yes. I figured that since Leviathon was from the depths of the sea he would be used to the cold water so I filled the tub up with scalding hot water and blessed the water. The angels (there were two now) brought Leviathon bound to the tub and fought with me. We all pulled our swords from our hips and began running this demon through with all my strength and everything I had. I would say it took atleast half an hour or more. We were all spent but the battle was won. "