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UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
#11
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 10, 2015 at 5:37 am)Pandæmonium Wrote:
(June 9, 2015 at 8:23 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It's not likely Muslims will surpass or level the rest of the british population in the next decades, there's little to worry about - Additionally, the young are often rebellious so there's a higher chance british kids (Muslims) would leave the religion because of (1) secular education and science teaching (2) there's no penalty for apostasy in Britan (I think)

You're right that there is no penalty for apostasy in British law, but Sharia law operates outside of that and there are still very, very harsh inter and intra-community punishments for it.

http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/new...nced-islam

There have been serious issues in the past in communities where the majority espouse a sect of Islam with harsh conservative sharia courts dominating local lives.

Yes - But at least Britain provides a good mechanism for non-believers to leave the religion without trouble - Unlike in Saudi Arabia. Keep in mind that you can find despicable family reactions to apostasy in more religions - I am Portuguese, and one thing that concerns me is that some high profile leaders of the JWs community supports families kicking kids out of the house if they leave the religion or do things that go against the faith - This is terrible, specially for young adults who don't have jobs, and for minors it is illegal.

Quote:You do know that the UK is not 59.5% Christian? The Richard Dawkins foundation ruthlessly debunked these statistics, the people who replied to such censuses were Christian in name only; when they did a follow up, they were incapable of even answering basic Christian questions which an average American would know.
LOOOL - So now the RD foundation determines who's Christian? Fuck him. If you call yourself a Christian and believe in god, you are a Christian. Dawkins needs to realize you don't need to read the whole bible and go to church everyday to be a Christian, that's bullshit. He doesn't get to say who's a real Christian or not, that's a no true scotsman fallacy - If 59% identifies as Christian, they are Christian. In my country, 80% are Christian and only 20% go to church, but that doesn't mean only 20% are Christian. You don't even need to read the bible or pray to be a Christian, you just gotta believe in Jesus.


Quote:PEW surveys show that Muslim families have more children on average - it's far more likely that their children will retain their faith as apostasy is stricter in Islam.
Quote:Also immigration in Britain is quite high.
Poor families have more children on average - That is true for many immigrants. Africans, latinos and other minorities also have more children - That's very common... People seem to think bigotry against religion is somewhat special because religion is a "choice" and race is not - The truth is I don't buy into the "free will" argument so I don't see anything as a choice. Bigotry against religion being made special because it's not a race is special pleading and still a prejudice. Additionally, it's a special pleading to think Islam is somehow different, it's a religion like any other, and it's prone to the same good and evil.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#12
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
Quote:LOOOL - So now the RD foundation determines who's Christian? Fuck him. If you call yourself a Christian and believe in god, you are a Christian. Dawkins needs to realize you don't need to read the whole bible and go to church everyday to be a Christian, that's bullshit. He doesn't get to say who's a real Christian or not, that's a no true scotsman fallacy - If 59% identifies as Christian, they are Christian. In my country, 80% are Christian and only 20% go to church, but that doesn't mean only 20% are Christian. You don't even need to read the bible or pray to be a Christian, you just gotta believe in Jesus.

The fact is that it is dishonest to call British a ''Christian nation'' considering the beliefs are pathetically weak; most are unsure of a personal belief in god and are closer to Deists. If you cant answer a basic question about Christianity, you're a CINO - Christian in name only. I was religious in name only too; even if we consider them ''Christian'' --- it's overstated as hell.

Quote:Poor families have more children on average - That is true for many immigrants. Africans, latinos and other minorities also have more children - That's very common... People seem to think bigotry against religion is somewhat special because religion is a "choice" and race is not - The truth is I don't buy into the "free will" argument so I don't see anything as a choice. Bigotry against religion being made special because it's not a race is special pleading and still a prejudice. Additionally, it's a special pleading to think Islam is somehow different, it's a religion like any other, and it's prone to the same good and evil.

Muslim families have more children on average. The Muslim population in the next few decades will outnumber the Christian population.

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/the-f...opulation/

That's true world-wide.

''Generally, Muslim populations tend to have higher fertility rates (more children per woman) than non-Muslim populations''

Note: this isn't anything bad, it's just a statistical trend. I was answering someone's question of why the Muslim population is increasing.
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#13
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 10, 2015 at 10:42 am)Dystopia Wrote:
(June 10, 2015 at 5:37 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: You're right that there is no penalty for apostasy in British law, but Sharia law operates outside of that and there are still very, very harsh inter and intra-community punishments for it.

http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/new...nced-islam

There have been serious issues in the past in communities where the majority espouse a sect of Islam with harsh conservative sharia courts dominating local lives.

Yes - But at least Britain provides a good mechanism for non-believers to leave the religion without trouble - Unlike in Saudi Arabia. Keep in mind that you can find despicable family reactions to apostasy in more religions - I am Portuguese, and one thing that concerns me is that some high profile leaders of the JWs community supports families kicking kids out of the house if they leave the religion or do things that go against the faith - This is terrible, specially for young adults who don't have jobs, and for minors it is illegal.

It does have a good mechanism (rule of law), but as you yourself point out in your post, these mechanisms are utterly irrelevant if the community/social subculture (Whatever) in questions refuses to abide by them.

Cultural [undefined] and religious norms in many Islamic communities necessitate the demonising and outcasting of aposates, just like in many north African communities the use of FGM is still rampant. All the laws and social constraints in the world ain't gonna do anything if people insulate themselves from that and wider society doesn't take a stand against it. In many ways, the only difference is that the state here doesn't actively enforce the punishment of apostates, but neither does it outright condemn terrible practices against them (as the article I linked elucidated). A thin line, i'm sure you'll agree.

As to your other point, yes, that is terrible, very terrible indeed Sad
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#14
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
I think the figures for Islam growing are blown out of proportion

Firstly, people who leave Islam or dissent from Islam are heavily stigmatised within their communities. Considering this, surely there must be a lot of Muslims who want to leave the religion but actually can't? If you take into consideration the amount of Muslims who are Muslim in name-only, but don't practice, I think the figures would be much smaller. There are quite a lot of Muslims my age who aren't really that into it, who "break the rules" or want a secular form of the religion.

The figures for Christianity are also trumped up too. nobody my age (early 20s) in the UK regularly goes to church, literally nobody, I don't know anyone my age who seriously practices Christianity anymore. Because they were raised Christian though, they'll still identify as Christian, even though nothing about their lifestyle is in accordance with the faith. The same is true for a lot of young Muslims too, even if they are still practicing the religion it may only be because of pressure from their families. One of my friends was raised Muslim and is a gay atheist, but he won't dare tell his family that.

I feel like "irreligious" best describes these kind of people, they may still have a casual or questioning belief in God, or may not believe in him. They may not associate with the "atheist" label, because "atheist" is still quite a charged term that, to many people, has political themes. "Irreligious" better describes their passiveness. I think the figure for atheists is far higher and both religions lower.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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#15
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
Christianity is dead in the UK.
How the collapse presents itself varies from denomination to denomination but all are now in the terminal phases of the process.
Anglicans and Catholics are closing parish churches and falling back on the cathedrals like the iconoclasts they are.
Methodists are abandoning their "moral" positions regarding gambling and surviving churches hold weekly bingo sessions to maintain income.
Baptists imploded and went through some of schism with more hard-line elements forcing moderates out and establishing new churches which for a while gave a facade of growth before economic reality hit and the new churches are dropping like flies.

Islam presents something of a difficult picture due to the threats from family members for apostasy which are difficult to escape from in the ghetto conditions which muslims tend to form in cities. Once individuals move out of those conditions apostasy is as rife as with christianity.
The question is how to break up those ghettos.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#16
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
Developed countries have operatives which ensure that these stupid fringes don't get out of hand... either working from the inside, or on the overall public opinion.
Would the british government really unwittingly allow muslim communities to impose their own law on significant parts of the country?

There will be a cap on muslim growth in developed countries as the pressures mount on how to treat children, cost increases proportionally to the number of children, child labor is illegal; kids will want their xboxes and playstations and PCs and iphones and wireless internet anywhere and games, and tv, and books.... books will make them learn, become educated and become integrated... if not straight on this first wave of immigrants, then their children or their children's children. Children will see the barbarism of shariah and move away from it.
It's inevitable.
Their numbers will stop growing out of control and only a few fringe idiots will continue with the lunacy... like a few fringe idiots continue with the lunacy of christianity.... not so fringe in parts of the US, or so I'm told! Tongue
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#17
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 11, 2015 at 8:39 am)pocaracas Wrote: Developed countries have operatives which ensure that these stupid fringes don't get out of hand... either working from the inside, or on the overall public opinion.
Would the british government really unwittingly allow muslim communities to impose their own law on significant parts of the country?

There will be a cap on muslim growth in developed countries as the pressures mount on how to treat children, cost increases proportionally to the number of children, child labor is illegal; kids will want their xboxes and playstations and PCs and iphones and wireless internet anywhere and games, and tv, and books.... books will make them learn, become educated and become integrated... if not straight on this first wave of immigrants, then their children or their children's children. Children will see the barbarism of shariah and move away from it.
It's inevitable.
Their numbers will stop growing out of control and only a few fringe idiots will continue with the lunacy... like a few fringe idiots continue with the lunacy of christianity.... not so fringe in parts of the US, or so I'm told! Tongue

In the UK, there are some potential barriers to that progress: 

1. If poverty continues to worsen, we'll see people get increasingly stressed by life and more desperate for survival. Stressed and desperate religious people often turn to the fundamentals of their religions as a coping mechanism. When the fundamentals are as inhumane as those of Islam, that might cause problems in wider society.

2. Poor housing policy and provision has caused ghettoisation of certain communities, the anglo-arabic communities are amongst those who suffer from this form of indirect social exclusion. When this is combined with education policies which prevent children from experiencing broader society, an environment is created in which ignorance and xenophobia can result, on both sides of the divide. Common behaviour of marginalised groups includes promotion of cultural stagnancy, mistrust of government and social self-exclusion. This would be an excellent garden in which to grow religious fundamentalism.
Sum ergo sum
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#18
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
Ghettos exist everywhere...
We have gypsies, here in Portugal... a part of their culture doesn't require that kids go to school.... but portuguese law mandates that all children go to school... and attend regularly... or else, subsidies stop. You wouldn't believe at how educated the gypsies are becoming! Still, it will take a generation or two until it's really felt.

Where does the money to support these muslim ghettos come from? People have to eat and ghettos don't tend to have a lot of arable land.
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#19
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 11, 2015 at 9:13 am)pocaracas Wrote: Ghettos exist everywhere...
We have gypsies, here in Portugal... a part of their culture doesn't require that kids go to school.... but portuguese law mandates that all children go to school... and attend regularly... or else, subsidies stop. You wouldn't believe at how educated the gypsies are becoming! Still, it will take a generation or two until it's really felt.

Where does the money to support these muslim ghettos come from? People have to eat and ghettos don't tend to have a lot of arable land.

I didn't see that happening, is it a Lisbon phenomenon? 
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#20
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 11, 2015 at 9:15 am)Dystopia Wrote:
(June 11, 2015 at 9:13 am)pocaracas Wrote: Ghettos exist everywhere...
We have gypsies, here in Portugal... a part of their culture doesn't require that kids go to school.... but portuguese law mandates that all children go to school... and attend regularly... or else, subsidies stop. You wouldn't believe at how educated the gypsies are becoming! Still, it will take a generation or two until it's really felt.

Where does the money to support these muslim ghettos come from? People have to eat and ghettos don't tend to have a lot of arable land.

I didn't see that happening, is it a Lisbon phenomenon? 

Maybe.... Bairro da Boavista, close to Benfica, where I live...
Gypsy kids go to school. their manners leave something to be desired, but they do go to school and some of them do really well.
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