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UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
#31
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 12, 2015 at 9:12 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Countless British are on the Islamic payroll to sell out their country to the Islamists.  They would quickly wrap you up.
Citation needed.

(June 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: exactly and what happened in france(the banning of burka) was the right thing to do, human rights is more important that religious rights.
No, from a Human Rights perspective, banning the burkha was exactly the wrong thing to do:

1. Telling people that they can't dress the way they want to is a direct violation of the right to self-expression.
2. Victimising muslim women for the way they (are forced to) dress does nothing to combat the real issues of patriarchy and misogyny in islam.
3. Marginalising muslims for a dress-code only prevents the type of constructive communication that's required to modernise the traditional (medieval) practices.

(June 13, 2015 at 6:00 am)TheMessiah Wrote: A lot of British people are trying to fight Islam, and they get labelled ''Islamaphobes'' --- though we've had great British thinkers lead the away against Islam, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, etc.
See, this is the problem: the idea that islam must be 'fought'. Muslims are as british as any other UK national, consequently they must not be 'fought' but included. That doesn't mean we accept harmful practices, instead we find ways to effectively combat harm while leaving muslims with their rights to freedom of religion intact. It's certain people and practices which must be fought, not 'islam' or 'muslims' as generic groups. That type of oversimplified thinking and crass generalisation can lead to actual islamophobia and stunt/ retard progress by leading us to false conclusions.
Sum ergo sum
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#32
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
I think it is this be-nice-to-religious-nutjobs attitude that causes that most problems with the abuse of religious freedom rights. After all, how far do you let the concessions go before it gets too far? How do you make these concessions for so many different religions and beliefs? How do apply human rules to those who believe themselves to be above the other humans?

The basis of all law including the religious freedom is based on our human rights and in almost every situation religious freedom breaks these. So I say either make strict laws to ensure one person cannot impose their beliefs on others or use separate rules for those who choose to identify themselves not as humans but as friend-to-imaginary-beings.
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

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#33
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 6:24 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(June 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: exactly and what happened in france(the banning of burka) was the right thing to do, human rights is more important that religious rights.
No, from a Human Rights perspective, banning the burkha was exactly the wrong thing to do:

1. Telling people that they can't dress the way they want to is a direct violation of the right to self-expression.
2. Victimising muslim women for the way they (are forced to) dress does nothing to combat the real issues of patriarchy and misogyny in islam.
3. Marginalising muslims for a dress-code only prevents the type of constructive communication that's required to modernise the traditional (medieval) practices.

You have no idea how much women suffer from their men forcing them to wear this shit, even when it's fucking hot in the summer.
They are helpless and they need an outside intervention by the name of human rights and mercy .

1. yes, if what they want to wear is a stupid dress that doesn't reveal their identity and treats women like garbage bags
2. no, it does; It shows them that there are other opinions out there and their ideas are stupid.
3. no one is telling them what to wear; Just a certain stupid dress is not allowed.
[Image: eUdzMRc.gif]
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#34
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 6:56 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: I think it is this be-nice-to-religious-nutjobs attitude that causes that most problems with the abuse of religious freedom rights.
I'm certainly not advocating being nice to nutjobs. It's the nutjobs who need fighting. We simply need to be aware that (in the UK) the nutjobs are the minority and that we harm the fight against human rights abuses by misrepresenting the majority. Most UK muslims also want to stop the nutjobs and we need to use the political system to enable them to fight their battles effectively.

Quote:After all, how far do you let the concessions go before it gets too far?
Too far, to steal an expression, would be when their hand reaches my nose.

Quote:How do you make these concessions for so many different religions and beliefs?
By having a secular system which places no individual religion above any other. The UK has done a pretty good job of that and while there have been some bad decisions made over the last decade/15yrs (e.g. allowing an increase in the number of religious schools), we're still amongst the most progressive nations when it comes to freedom of religious expression. The result has been that most religious people in the UK are also progressive.

Quote:How do apply human rules to those who believe themselves to be above the other humans?
Well, those are the nutjobs. The best thing to do is to legislate so that they don't get to impose their beliefs on others then act on that legislation, evenhandedly. That's why the law needs to be carefully considered and representative of the realities of the situation. Hence my opposition to misrepresentation of muslims in the UK.

Quote:The basis of all law including the religious freedom is based on our human rights and in almost every situation religious freedom breaks these.
Very far from the truth. For example:

1. most muslim women in the UK don't wear hajib or burkha however they are free to do so if they wish. The issue is 'why' they wish to wear them: that's where the fight against institutionalised sexism is happening, and being won by feminists/progressives/egalitarians.

2. most children of religious parents attend secular schools where students are free to study a broad range of curricula with limited interference (although I understand there are trends of 'preferred' studies in certain cultures, often where parents have a vocational, irreligious preference for their children). Extremely rarely are parents instructing schools that their children can't attend certain classes for religious reasons.

Quote: So I say either make strict laws to ensure one person cannot impose their beliefs on others or use separate rules for those who choose to identify themselves not as humans but as friend-to-imaginary-beings.
The UK has both, the former in our legal interpretation of the Human Rights Act and the second in our Mental Health Act. In the overwhelming majority of circumstances, both pieces of legislation are working well in protecting all UK nationals.
Sum ergo sum
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#35
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
Immigration and fertility rates.  The US had a catholic uptick for the same reasons. Immigrant populations do, within a few generations, "naturalize". So I wouldn't worry about it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 7:27 am)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: You have no idea how much women suffer from their men forcing them to wear this shit, even when it's fucking hot in the summer.
You're both right & wrong here: I have no direct experience of this as I'm neither a woman nor a muslim however I support women in their fight for equal rights and fight on their side when called on. Consequently I know people, personally, who've suffered islam-based sexism. I'm of the opinion I have a very good idea of the suffering caused by the imposition of dress codes on women. I fail to see how the French imposition of a dress code is meant to feel any better for the women who are looking to free themselves from the imposition of dress codes.

Quote:They are helpless and they need an outside intervention by the name of human rights and mercy .
Once again, both right & wrong: Some women are so subject to men that they require intervention, both legal and social, to reintegrate them in to society. No one should be denied access to that level of protection and it's right that such recourse exists. However 'women' aren't necessarily helpless. Many are both willing and able to fight against the patriarchy and sexism inherent in islamic (and associated) cultures. In the UK, the majority of muslim women are carrying the fight forward, to a lesser or greater extent, and need very little in the way of intervention to be effective. That said, people who care about sexual equality, whatever their sex, ethnicity, identity or creed, should be prepared to offer whatever help is needed whenever it's needed.

Quote:1. yes, if what they want to wear is a stupid dress that doesn't reveal their identity and treats women like garbage bags
I agree however legislating in favour of 'government approved' dress codes doesn't demonstrate that dress codes are bad, just that 'someone else's' dress codes are bad. How long have mulsim women been hearing this? Two wrongs don't make a right; the French Gov should have been smarter and sent a different message.

Quote:2. no, it does; It shows them that there are other opinions out there and their ideas are stupid.
In the UK, muslim women have been successfully fighting islam-based sexism by confronting the root-causes: the gender stereotypes which create social gender-bias. It's been demonstrated to be a highly effective mechanism, changing the general behaviour of muslims, in the majority, in favour of egalitarian principles within a generation. This mechanism avoids the risk of marginalisation of muslims by helping them to fight their own battles.

Quote:3. no one is telling them what to wear; Just a certain stupid dress is not allowed.
"No-one's telling them what to wear, just what not to wear." Do you honestly not see that's exactly the same thing? It's the message "Because you're women, the following clothes are allowed..." that must be opposed, whether it stems from islam-based sexism or Governmental authority.
Sum ergo sum
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#37
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 9:27 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
Quote:3. no one is telling them what to wear; Just a certain stupid dress is not allowed.
"No-one's telling them what to wear, just what not to wear." Do you honestly not see that's exactly the same thing? It's the message "Because you're women, the following clothes are allowed..." that must be opposed, whether it stems from islam-based sexism or Governmental authority.

The same prohibition applies to men.
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#38
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
what to wear and what not to wear, absolutely not the same thing.
[Image: eUdzMRc.gif]
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#39
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 9:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: The same prohibition applies to men.
Indeed it does and for much the same reasons. However bringing that up at this point of the conversation is a little distracting.
Do you hold a position on the French Gov's decision to 'ban the burkha'? Is it based on a general position you hold regarding gender bias in apparel?
Sum ergo sum
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#40
RE: UK - Christianity declining, Atheism rising, but so is Islam...
(June 15, 2015 at 10:16 am)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: what to wear and what not to wear, absolutely not the same thing.
They're both instructions on what can be worn. They're the same thing.
Sum ergo sum
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