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(June 16, 2015 at 10:48 am)Crossless1 Wrote: . . . and marketing.
The sad thing is that Drich doesn't even realize how self-defeating his own posts are. He just spews his word salads and declares victory, braying like an ass. It used to amuse me; now I'm just bored with it.
Or, maybe Drich is teach in the style of OT Rabbi's/Jesus in that he give foolish people enough slack to hang themselves with something they think they know, then once the obvious has been accounted for 'He/They' points out something the fool does do not know or understand.
I'm glad to see that your delusions of adequacy are intact. But sorry -- you're no Hillel.
(June 16, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: The thing is, that proves that there are errors in it and it therefore cannot be completely trusted.
It is just another book written by men, and they got things wrong.
seriously?!?! Is it your opinion that everything that potentially contains any error no matter how small can not be trusted? What about your god 'science' or more specifically the words from your prophet Darwin? did any of his words/observation contain errors? Is his whole theory to be thrown out? Are the works of Darwin and everything everyone in his field has done after him, 'just the works of men, and they got things wrong?'
It's funny how you can revere one 'work of man' and demand/reset a standard for another just to disqualify it.
Quote: We then have no reason to believe that anything in it is right, unless it is independently verified.
That's a foolish assumption. The bible rather more specifically the gospel is a set of instructions, that is promised to have the A/S/K'er find God. All anyone need do to verify the content of the bible is just follow the instructions in it. It is just like verifying anyother turn by turn set of instructions. The best way to verify a set of instructions is to follow said instructions.
If you still think you need a third party to verify them for you, then I can attest that I followed/Following said instructions and received what I/we have been promised.
Quote:Which pretty well destroys the Christian religion, for every thinking person.
:rolol: dumbest thing ever said on this forum. If Christianity is destroyed by such a measure then by the very same set of standards so too is all of 'science.'
Quote:There are other ancient books, also written by men, and you have no reason to pick this book (or, more properly, set of books) as being anything special.
The reason I stand behind the bible is because I have followed the instructions their in and Found God as promised. (See nope's What does the holy Spirit do" thread for details.
Quote:You have just told us that it is not made by God and infallible,
so?
Quote: but is just another book that contains falsehoods.
That's not true.(That's a falsehood) By definition a falsehood is an intentional lie. There is a big difference between a conflicting story and an out and out lie/falsehood.
Do you see how far you have to bend the truth to make your point? If your efforts were legit, why would you have to lie about the contents of the bible or my representation of it?
Quote: If God had actually guided the authors, they would not get things wrong, unless God himself is a liar and wanted it that way.
Why does God have to be a liar to want error in the bible?
Error in the bible keeps foolish man from worship a work of God as God himself. Look at how some of us worship the things supposedly touched by God, look at the quests and ledgends told about relics of Christ and the deciples. The crap they supposedly left behind are worshiped as idols that somehow represent God... Now imagine the perverse worship and false sense of deity placed on a work of God. One that could be verified...
To put it another way If we all have been given this life outside the known glory of God to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with him or not. why then would He leave a verifiable part of His known/knowable glory behind?
God has intentionally hidden himself so we can have the freedom to choose whether or not we would like to spend eternity with Him. This choice ceases to be a Choice when God's glory is known.
There are also contradictions that are clearly not trivial, nor do they depend on the particular translation, as the stories themselves are incompatible. For example:
In Luke 1:26-35, we have:
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
But in Luke 2:41-50:41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
49 [b]“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[ 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Quote:Now, how is it that they did not understand what Jesus was saying there? There is no way you are is going to forget an angel visiting you and telling you that your virgin fiancée has been impregnated by God, so you should go ahead and marry her anyway. So if this later story is true, the earlier one about the virgin birth is false. The story is not consistent with itself.
I think you have confused yourself with all that king james English. I am going to replace your version with something easier to read... So read the two passages you left again... Did you see and understand it this time?
Good! See sometimes it's not even the matter of translating from greek to English. Sometimes it is a matter of translating the King James English to something you can understand.
(just incase you missed it) Jesus had the same question you do. In essence He is point to his deity/When and where He came from and reminding them of it, yet they did not see Him that way. (which is why they did not understand what He said) To them (since this is His first recorded 'event') They probably saw him as one of the kids.
Just FYI if you or your 'source' points to a contradiction in the same book (one passage seems to conflict with what another says) then know it is your understanding of what is being said that is in error. Don't believe the leftist/Atheist brainwashing propaganda. Their are those of us who have poured ourselves over the text and found them to be solid. The biggest problem people like you have with the 'bible' is trying to reconcile a dead English dialect... there is just enough English in there to give you the false sense of full contextual knowledge, when in fact (per your own example) you don't even know what is being discussed.
Quote:So we have reason to doubt everything,
Yeah?, so do we in 1thess 5:21'Question all things and hold on to what is good.' Again don't be daft and believe that all Christians check logic and reason at the door. Some of us have questioned everything, and in the end found God.
Quote: as it is just a mess rather than a coherent story.
Quote:And that is even keeping with the same book of the Bible, and not bothering with inconsistencies from one book to the next. It is a huge pile of crap, that no thinking person can take seriously.
Do you know what is really funny? All you 'thinking people" come to the exact same conclusion based on the same failed evidence. You would think a 'thinking person' once shown something like "the skeptics annoted bible answered." would have taken that resource and examined it before posting a supposed 'contradiction' like you posted. But, I guess unless 'thinking people' are told what to 'think' about a unknown or an answer to a pivotal argument in your anti-theology you just keep on toeing the same old line.
(I'm saying your a sheep who 'thinks' like the heard thinks, and this is evidenced by you inablity to adjust your argument to compensate for the resource I provided, that answers 99.999% of all supposed contradictions/conflicts in the bible. So that means you and people who fancy themselves 'thinkers' really don't think as much as they been told they think they do. what's even more ironic is the fact that the SAB has been answered, which means the Christians who took the time to answer the SAB actually put in more thought than those who wrote the SAB):Rolol: Yeah, thinkers.. that describes the lot of you..
Quote:It greatly resembles other writings of primitive, ignorant, superstitious people, and is of no value as a guide to life, or as a guide to anything even important historically.
Who told you to think this? or have you actually done a comparative study?
(I have 10-15 years, and I found nothing like the bible)
Quote: The virgin birth, miracle cures, it is all the same sort of BS nonsense one finds in other ancient texts, written by other primitive, ignorant, superstitious people than the primitive, ignorant, superstitious people who wrote the Bible.
such as?
Quote:Even you know that it contains falsehood, and yet you pretend that it is somehow a guide to life. But it cannot be a reliable guide when it gets things wrong.
Please point to a 'falsehood.' Remember you are bound by the definition of Falshood and actual Book Chapter and verse... And Go!
(June 16, 2015 at 4:14 pm)Drich Wrote: Or, maybe Drich is teach in the style of OT Rabbi's/Jesus in that he give foolish people enough slack to hang themselves with something they think they know, then once the obvious has been accounted for 'He/They' points out something the fool does do not know or understand.
I'm glad to see that your delusions of adequacy are intact. But sorry -- you're no Hillel.
Oi, hillel, who claims to be Hillel? I'm a no body who works with smucks.
June 16, 2015 at 6:06 pm (This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 6:29 pm by Pyrrho.)
(June 16, 2015 at 5:39 pm)Drich Wrote: ...
That's not true.(That's a falsehood) By definition a falsehood is an intentional lie. There is a big difference between a conflicting story and an out and out lie/falsehood.
...
The primary definition of the word "falsehood" is " being not true:"
Quote:falsehood
noun [MASS NOUN] 1The state of being untrue:the truth or falsehood of the many legends which surround her
I see that having a conversation with you is a waste of time, since you are a clueless moron who does not understand common words in English. As a consequence, you fail to understand things that are posted.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
June 17, 2015 at 2:53 am (This post was last modified: June 17, 2015 at 2:54 am by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(June 16, 2015 at 5:39 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 16, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: The thing is, that proves that there are errors in it and it therefore cannot be completely trusted.
It is just another book written by men, and they got things wrong.
seriously?!?! Is it your opinion that everything that potentially contains any error no matter how small can not be trusted? What about your god 'science' or more specifically the words from your prophet Darwin? did any of his words/observation contain errors? Is his whole theory to be thrown out? Are the works of Darwin and everything everyone in his field has done after him, 'just the works of men, and they got things wrong?'
It's funny how you can revere one 'work of man' and demand/reset a standard for another just to disqualify it.
Quote: We then have no reason to believe that anything in it is right, unless it is independently verified.
That's a foolish assumption. The bible rather more specifically the gospel is a set of instructions, that is promised to have the A/S/K'er find God. All anyone need do to verify the content of the bible is just follow the instructions in it. It is just like verifying anyother turn by turn set of instructions. The best way to verify a set of instructions is to follow said instructions.
If you still think you need a third party to verify them for you, then I can attest that I followed/Following said instructions and received what I/we have been promised.
Quote:Which pretty well destroys the Christian religion, for every thinking person.
:rolol: dumbest thing ever said on this forum. If Christianity is destroyed by such a measure then by the very same set of standards so too is all of 'science.'
Quote:There are other ancient books, also written by men, and you have no reason to pick this book (or, more properly, set of books) as being anything special.
The reason I stand behind the bible is because I have followed the instructions their in and Found God as promised. (See nope's What does the holy Spirit do" thread for details.
Quote:You have just told us that it is not made by God and infallible,
so?
Quote:but is just another book that contains falsehoods.
That's not true.(That's a falsehood) By definition a falsehood is an intentional lie. There is a big difference between a conflicting story and an out and out lie/falsehood.
Do you see how far you have to bend the truth to make your point? If your efforts were legit, why would you have to lie about the contents of the bible or my representation of it?
Quote: If God had actually guided the authors, they would not get things wrong, unless God himself is a liar and wanted it that way.
Why does God have to be a liar to want error in the bible?
Error in the bible keeps foolish man from worship a work of God as God himself. Look at how some of us worship the things supposedly touched by God, look at the quests and ledgends told about relics of Christ and the deciples. The crap they supposedly left behind are worshiped as idols that somehow represent God... Now imagine the perverse worship and false sense of deity placed on a work of God. One that could be verified...
To put it another way If we all have been given this life outside the known glory of God to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with him or not. why then would He leave a verifiable part of His known/knowable glory behind?
God has intentionally hidden himself so we can have the freedom to choose whether or not we would like to spend eternity with Him. This choice ceases to be a Choice when God's glory is known.
There are also contradictions that are clearly not trivial, nor do they depend on the particular translation, as the stories themselves are incompatible. For example:
In Luke 1:26-35, we have:
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
But in Luke 2:41-50:41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
49 [b]“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[ 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
[/b]
Quote:Now, how is it that they did not understand what Jesus was saying there? There is no way you are is going to forget an angel visiting you and telling you that your virgin fiancée has been impregnated by God, so you should go ahead and marry her anyway. So if this later story is true, the earlier one about the virgin birth is false. The story is not consistent with itself.
I think you have confused yourself with all that king james English. I am going to replace your version with something easier to read... So read the two passages you left again... Did you see and understand it this time?
Good! See sometimes it's not even the matter of translating from greek to English. Sometimes it is a matter of translating the King James English to something you can understand.
(just incase you missed it) Jesus had the same question you do. In essence He is point to his deity/When and where He came from and reminding them of it, yet they did not see Him that way. (which is why they did not understand what He said) To them (since this is His first recorded 'event') They probably saw him as one of the kids.
Just FYI if you or your 'source' points to a contradiction in the same book (one passage seems to conflict with what another says) then know it is your understanding of what is being said that is in error. Don't believe the leftist/Atheist brainwashing propaganda. Their are those of us who have poured ourselves over the text and found them to be solid. The biggest problem people like you have with the 'bible' is trying to reconcile a dead English dialect... there is just enough English in there to give you the false sense of full contextual knowledge, when in fact (per your own example) you don't even know what is being discussed.
Quote:So we have reason to doubt everything,
Yeah?, so do we in 1thess 5:21'Question all things and hold on to what is good.' Again don't be daft and believe that all Christians check logic and reason at the door. Some of us have questioned everything, and in the end found God.
Quote:as it is just a mess rather than a coherent story.
Quote:And that is even keeping with the same book of the Bible, and not bothering with inconsistencies from one book to the next. It is a huge pile of crap, that no thinking person can take seriously.
Do you know what is really funny? All you 'thinking people" come to the exact same conclusion based on the same failed evidence. You would think a 'thinking person' once shown something like "the skeptics annoted bible answered." would have taken that resource and examined it before posting a supposed 'contradiction' like you posted. But, I guess unless 'thinking people' are told what to 'think' about a unknown or an answer to a pivotal argument in your anti-theology you just keep on toeing the same old line.
(I'm saying your a sheep who 'thinks' like the heard thinks, and this is evidenced by you inablity to adjust your argument to compensate for the resource I provided, that answers 99.999% of all supposed contradictions/conflicts in the bible. So that means you and people who fancy themselves 'thinkers' really don't think as much as they been told they think they do. what's even more ironic is the fact that the SAB has been answered, which means the Christians who took the time to answer the SAB actually put in more thought than those who wrote the SAB):Rolol: Yeah, thinkers.. that describes the lot of you..
Quote:It greatly resembles other writings of primitive, ignorant, superstitious people, and is of no value as a guide to life, or as a guide to anything even important historically.
Who told you to think this? or have you actually done a comparative study?
(I have 10-15 years, and I found nothing like the bible)
Quote: The virgin birth, miracle cures, it is all the same sort of BS nonsense one finds in other ancient texts, written by other primitive, ignorant, superstitious people than the primitive, ignorant, superstitious people who wrote the Bible.
such as?
Quote:Even you know that it contains falsehood, and yet you pretend that it is somehow a guide to life. But it cannot be a reliable guide when it gets things wrong.
Please point to a 'falsehood.' Remember you are bound by the definition of Falshood and actual Book Chapter and verse... And Go!
Lame attempt to move goal post in 3..2..1...
+++++
The bible has instructions that specify a believer is to kill anyone who does any work on the sabbath. How closely should that instruction be followed in today's environment?
June 17, 2015 at 9:30 am (This post was last modified: June 17, 2015 at 9:48 am by Drich.)
(June 16, 2015 at 6:06 pm) pid=\966577' Wrote:
(June 16, 2015 at 5:39 pm)Drich Wrote: ...
That's not true.(That's a falsehood) By definition a falsehood is an intentional lie. There is a big difference between a conflicting story and an out and out lie/falsehood.
...
The primary definition of the word "falsehood" is " being not true:"
Quote:falsehood
noun [MASS NOUN] 1The state of being untrue:the truth or falsehood of the many legends which surround her
I see that having a conversation with you is a waste of time, since you are a clueless moron who does not understand common words in English. As a consequence, you fail to understand things that are posted.
Actually... it would seem that you would be using a falsehood to avoid going point by point with me.
What do I mean? Let start with the whole definition of the primary definition of falsehood.
false·hood
/ˈfôlsˌho͝od/
noun
noun: falsehood
the state of being untrue.
"the truth or falsehood of the many legends that surround her"
•a lie.
plural noun: falsehoods
synonyms: lie, untruth, fib, falsification, fabrication, invention, fiction, story, cock-and-bull story, flight of fancy; More
half truth;
informaltall story, tall tale, fairy tale, whopper
"a downright falsehood"
antonyms: truth
•lying.
"the right to sue for malicious falsehood"
synonyms: lying, mendacity, untruthfulness, fibbing, fabrication, invention, perjury, telling stories; More
If you look at the synonyms of the primary definition all are spelled out with the intentional deception.
The word (if you were not intellectually dishonest) you should have used would have been conflicting.. As in: "The gospels seem to have conflicting accounts."
Just because one account conflicts with another does not mean one is a lie.
for instance, without a mechanical means to record or measure time, the writters would have had absolutely no way to know exactly what time Christ died. The only way they had to tell time back then was by the sun. And all accounts say that God blotted out the sun the moon and all of the other stars. So they would have had no way of knowing what time it was. as their only measure of time was celestial. only a fool would read the recorded times of Christ death and assume that one writer was intentionally lying about his time of death.
Its GODS breathed/inspired WORD..........until someone points out descrepencies.......then
AWWWWWW shucks......just people being people and scribbling shit down.....
Actually the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit according to the bible.
Now allyouneed do is Define what it means to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Then take that definition and see if it lines up with what you seem to think it to mean.
Or bottom line does inspiration of the Holy Spirit in an indivisual mean one is perfect as God is perfect in everything that person says and does?
Without a doubt Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So the question then becomes does Paul ever make a mistake in anything he has said or done in or for the church while being Spirit Inspired? If he admits to being in error then Spirit Inspiration does not mean one then becomes perfect as God is Perfect. It simply means one is lead by God. Just as we can lead a horse to water we can not make him drink it. Maybe that is why the bible itself never claims to be without error.
Thanks for admitting ........you..........like every other christian??.........don't have a clue.......and are just winging it
The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so.
-- Mark Twain
(June 16, 2015 at 11:45 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Oh. So the divinely inspired authors don't agree with each other on events relating to the divine, and that doesn't bother you in the slightest.
I did not say the conflicts in scripture were not reconsilable, I simply point to the undeniable fact that they are there, and no they do not bother me. Why? because once one studies the scripture and the time in which these people lived, the 'conflicts' add to the authsenticity of the accounts recorded.
Quote:So to you and yours 'ultimate truth' falls in how many women went into the sepulcher? or what specific time of day Christ died?
Quote:Nice dodge, but the bullet didn't miss you: you admitted there are contradictions in the scripture you apparently (since you didn't bother to) can't be explained by the usual 'that's metaphorical'
again I was not asked to reconcile the account, if you want me to explain how this conflict is resolved then ask me to resolve it. As it was contextually written the conflicts were used to question belief. I answered accordingly.
Quote:Irrelevant. You are not god and do not claim to be all-powerful and all-knowing. Answer me, Dripsy: is your god capable of writing a book that would not contain contradictions?
Again God is alpha and Omega, He can do what ever He wants...
Quote:Yes, that and all the other absolutely pointless figures, like the unnecessarily detailed description of the ark for example
Unless it was found...
Quote:Or maybe you were reading deuteronomy (the book of the law)
Quote:Which DOES happen to be in the bible, doesn't it now?
Did you miss the point? Deuteronomy reads like a book of the law because it is a book of the law.. If you know it is a book of Jewish law then why the need to make mention of it?
Quote:Overinterpretation on your part....I was hinting at the fact that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts, not implying no one similar to the biblical Christ existed. And I don't watch the History Channel.
You do know the 'witnesses' for the most part were fishermen right? and that in that day and time only officals of the state such as a Tax collector (Matthew) and or priestly Scribe would have actually been able to write or record anything?
It was a common practice for a witness to have what they saw transcribed. So to say the gospels were not written by the eye witnesses is an empty charge.
Quote:It isn't? Ah, those pesky catholics implying the existence of objective morality must've been reading something else then....
Actually they read from decrees and the traditions of the church, not the bible to define their 'morals' or haven't you noticed a distinct lack of confessionals, rosaries, hail Mary's in the bible?
Quote:It's really very nice of you to be so self-incriminating, Dripsy, saves me a lot of trouble.
actually sport you will learn to tread lightly around obvious 'wins', as they tend to be apart of a greater truth that generally point to a lack of basic understanding on your part.
Quote:
The point that I'm asking you to address is this: if god is perfect, why is the bible so imperfect?
[/quote]
Let's go for the obvious answer: "The bible is not God."
The bible is a set of instructions, not a text book. It's truths are found in following said instructions, and producing what has been promised. not in philosophical debate on whether the instructions are viable or not. In this God uses the bible and it's perceived 'imperfections' to filter out those who can follow simple instruction given by him and those who can not.
Again that what this life is all about the separation of those who want to be with God and those who do not. Our lives are filled with tools like this to help that process out. So that when we face our final judgement we will know in our hearts that our judgement is right and just
seriously?!?! Is it your opinion that everything that potentially contains any error no matter how small can not be trusted? What about your god 'science' or more specifically the words from your prophet Darwin? did any of his words/observation contain errors? Is his whole theory to be thrown out? Are the works of Darwin and everything everyone in his field has done after him, 'just the works of men, and they got things wrong?'
![[Image: tumblr_mliut3rXE01soz1kco1_500.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=31.media.tumblr.com%2F1ccb209a7f672ea6b62b8550a4c12eb4%2Ftumblr_mliut3rXE01soz1kco1_500.jpg)
