My Creationist friend

[Janey]

Do these friends also believe that the universe is less than 10,000 years old? (I'm guessing they do, because why would the universe be here before their deity created the Earth for us?) Just ask these ignoramuses how it is that we can see stars and galaxies that are millions of light years away if the universe is only 10,000 years old. If what they believe is true, the visible universe would only be 10,000 light years. Of course, be prepared for them to give you some made up nonsense about how "God" created the universe with these stars already visible to us. In which case, you could ask them why this god is deceptive. To this, they'll no doubt ask how their god is being deceptive. Your reply would be to say that "God" is making the universe appear older than it really is. It appears to us that the universe is billions of years old when it's actually only 10,000 years old. Why would this deity want to fool us?

Thank you! I need great ideas like this to throw at them! Do you have any others? Not complicated ones, just ideas that would perhaps make them think. Thanks so much!!

[lukec]

The deception point applies to other things too. For example, the Noatian deluge idea (which would've put down a single, thick stratum) vs actual, visible strata showing multiple layers of sedimentary deposits. Another is the simple fact of the fossil record- all older, longer extinct animals are found in older strata, with no mixing of contemporary or even just more recent species found in, for example, the Cambrian (fossil rabbits in the Precambrian, whoever said that).

I doubt you'll get them to even consider evidence/facts with an open mind, however. Indoctrination runs deep, and too often words and reason are not tools enough to dig it up.

[Janey]

Thank you.

I was never too concerned with the religious, I was more ok, live and let live, whatever.............but I've become increasingly worried about the fact that they will not entertain the idea that could be wrong, even when it goes against all available scientific evidence. This isn't a positive thing for society. But what on earth can one do? It seems we're fighting a losing battle a lot of the time.

[Minimalist]

It seems we're fighting a losing battle a lot of the time.

No, the number of people who profess atheism is growing and the number of people in mainstream religion is declining. Europe is way ahead of us on this score but we just have to maintain ourselves and continue to present an alternative viewpoint. Stupid people hate being told that they are stupid and the fundies leave themselves wide open when they start talking about Noah's fucking flood.

[EggSpurt]

Oh jeez, where to start? First off, if he believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old, then he believes that the earth is approximately 6000 years old, give or take. I think that the genealogy has the week of creation occur at 4,400 BC, or something like that. So you can tell him that the entire universe was created, as sam harris puts it, about a thousand years after the sumerians invented glue. Sam has these great lines in his books that really bring out the absurdity of religious beliefs.

I don't know how to address this topic without hurting or offending, because for the believer it's one of the most personal topics out there. Fortunately i'm not worried about offending, and in cases like this I have zero qualms about proclaiming the creationist sheltered and ignorant of even the most basic grade-school level earth sciences. Sometimes the quickest way to stop believing in Santa is to have all the other kids laugh at you.

But here's one you can try that may perhaps have an effect: Pope John Paul II has publicly declared and accepted Evolution as fact. But if evolution is a fact, then man is descended from a common ancestor some 3.5-4 billion years ago.
Ask your friend why or how the pope (god's liaison on earth) is wrong.
Creatonists won't listen to you, because you're not an authority in their eyes. But the Pope is a different matter. This might give your friend something to think about.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

It seems we're fighting a losing battle a lot of the time.

No, the number of people who profess atheism is growing and the number of people in mainstream religion is declining. Europe is way ahead of us on this score but we just have to maintain ourselves and continue to present an alternative viewpoint. Stupid people hate being told that they are stupid and the fundies leave themselves wide open when they start talking about Noah's fucking flood.

We are definitely fighting a losing battle if we are presenting our views as vulgar, wordy jerks (e.g. tav, minimalist...). Religion offers support and acceptance, and what do people like tav offer: 'yeah i'm going to call you stupid and you better like it fuck fuck fuck.'

[Minimalist]

Life sucks, TFS.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

Life sucks, TFS.

aw, i feel ya dude. hang in there.

[Loki_999]

The problem is, if they are really brainwashed and you present them with a logical argument, the first thing they will do is type into Google "Proof that the Earth is only 6000 years old". They will find plenty of links that give "evidence" and "logical arguments" for that position. Then they will come straight back to you spouting the rubbish they have read, and think you are the stupid one for not understanding.

Alternatively they will instantly spout some wibble such as "God moves in mysterious ways" and expect you to be happy with that.

One I like to hit the real literal believers with is from the start of the bible.

God created Adam, god created Eve. Kicked from the garden of eden and settled down to have a family. Cain and Able are prominent but we can assume they had lots of other kids as well. The question is where did the third generation come from?

Brother and sister sex? Mother and son sex? Father and daughter sex? All not only wrong according to Christians but also wrong from a nature point of view. Genes are too close and there would be a high number of non-viable babies. Would expect that to be mentioned in the bible....

"And lo, Eve got preggers again from Cain, and this baby was born with 6 toes on one foot and two heads, and verily, they praised the Lord for this miracle".

[Janey]

It seems we're fighting a losing battle a lot of the time.

No, the number of people who profess atheism is growing and the number of people in mainstream religion is declining. Europe is way ahead of us on this score but we just have to maintain ourselves and continue to present an alternative viewpoint. Stupid people hate being told that they are stupid and the fundies leave themselves wide open when they start talking about Noah's fucking flood.

Found this on Noah and his Ark. Any thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc2jphwJyzo