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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:36 am
Bullshit. I did the a/s/k for years and got nothing. I also call bullshit on your trip to hell. But go ahead please give me so veritiable and independently reviewable evidence that your trip to hell was real.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:36 am
(August 10, 2015 at 11:36 am)Drich Wrote: (August 9, 2015 at 9:36 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: But I did seek out God. your terms or His?
His.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:39 am
Yep. The third reich, totally secular. Totally. That 'gott mit uns' stuff is uh.....a metaphor. Yep. And the RCC so didn't love him and celebrate his birthday and have antisemitism as its official doctrine. Nope.
Just another day in lalaland.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:40 am
(August 9, 2015 at 9:44 pm)McDoogins Wrote: Socrates and Plato had this figured out years ago.
The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
A sober man would say something is pious because it is pious, not because it is loved by the gods.
Basically, something isn't good just because a higher authority commands it.
You mean agreeable. Something is not agreeable because a higher authority commands it. "Good" is not a relative term in this situation 'we' do not have the authority to determine 'good' only what is good for us/society. However this measure of 'good' in no way effects the measure of 'Good' set by the Higher Authority of God. Why does God get to determine what is God and what is not? Because He literally created everything and in His game we play by His rules or our 'pieces' are taken off his board.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:46 am
(August 10, 2015 at 11:40 am)Drich Wrote: (August 9, 2015 at 9:44 pm)McDoogins Wrote: Socrates and Plato had this figured out years ago.
The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
A sober man would say something is pious because it is pious, not because it is loved by the gods.
Basically, something isn't good just because a higher authority commands it.
You mean agreeable. Something is not agreeable because a higher authority commands it. "Good" is not a relative term in this situation 'we' do not have the authority to determine 'good' only what is good for us/society. However this measure of 'good' in no way effects the measure of 'Good' set by the Higher Authority of God. Why does God get to determine what is God and what is not? Because He literally created everything and in His game we play by His rules or our 'pieces' are taken off his board. No he means good. Now can you provide some unambiguous and veritiable evidence for your claims about the properties of God.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Posts: 13392
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Joined: March 18, 2012
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:53 am
(August 10, 2015 at 12:07 am)Esquilax Wrote: (August 9, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Can I make a suggestion?
I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.
Now I'm going to repeat those lines because I'm sure someone will accuse me of it anyway:
I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.
With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).
Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.
So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the worst thing of all?
I get what you're saying, I just don't think that the internal consistency of vile views makes the actual views any better. From Drich's perspective, yeah, I guess he is trying to do something good, but as always the way a person goes about fulfilling their intentions says a lot about them, and in this case there's absolutely no need for him to wish bad things on anybody. There's no need for bad things to be on the table period.
Drich believes in a god that has it in his power to convince me that he exists without giving me cancer, or beating me up, or anything like that. I'm on record, as are many people here, as saying that a god who unambiguously exists wouldn't need to do all this proxy convincing, he would just be unambiguous, and that'd be that. But Drich's god won't just show up, and one of the few ways that Drich can conceive of to get us to believe as he does is coercion through force, to have us abused until we submit out of desperation. Whatever his intentions, that's a peek into his psyche, and what it shows is a bunch of nasty little revenge fantasies about how much we have to hurt before we believe him, simmering in there.
To be clear, I've had people pray for me before. I'm sure you pray for people yourself, CL. The cancer stuff, the AIDs stuff, doesn't ever come up, with other people. The only person I've ever known who specifically made a point of telling us that his prayers also encompass a lot of bad stuff that could happen to us to force us to submit, is Drich, a man who routinely acts as smugly and condescendingly and so unlike his Christ as anyone I've ever seen.
It's nice that you think the best for Drich, and it's good having a decent christian around who does think positively, but I just can't get there myself. I've seen how he conducts himself for too long, and in the end, that doesn't even matter, because in the pursuit of a good aim he's gone to a dark, dark place. Road to hell, good intentions, and all that.
Someone else... Faith no More also said I am not Christ like... Is it I'm not Christ like and you can show me book chapter and verse where when confronted by neysayers Christ did not act in a similar manor, or do you just assume that Christ should simply act a certain way because those who came to Him in all humility were treated so well?
Because if you care to look at all the interchanges between Christ and the neysayers/His opposition they were not treated with the same level of dignity and respect they demanded from themselves to each other and from the people that serviced/ruled over. Matter of fact it was Christ very harsh treatment of the proud pharrisees and saducees that God Him crucified. They hated this man so much as to have him Killed. they could not win arguments, they could not discredit not rightfully convict Him so they literally had to break Everysingle rule they had showing themselves to be true hipocrites to have him killed. again because He did not respect those misrepresenting themselves and God.
I carfully follow that patern.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 11:56 am
(August 10, 2015 at 11:29 am)Drich Wrote: (August 9, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Can I make a suggestion?
I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.
Now I'm going to repeat those lines because I'm sure someone will accuse me of it anyway:
I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.
With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).
Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.
So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the worst thing of all? Their were several factors:
First a trip to Hell:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html
Then a prayer to do whatever it took: post 135
http://atheistforums.org/thread-11671-page-14.html
Then direction:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
Then I went to work for several years (their is a post that details everything for the last 20 years, but I can't find it)
Then my comments about cancer here. Then there are several posts in the announcement/departing thread about my cancer scare.
Why is all the ups and down so nessary?
Because it is with the Ups we are tested in faithness and our pride in tested, and with the downs our beliefs are corrected and we learn and grow For God. Wisdom and insight is obtained.
to Not pray for the bad is to rob believers of the easiest way to truly know who God is and what God wants. It also forces out blind eyes to open and our deaf ears to hear Him.
That said the prayers is not just for the bad things but the heart and willingness to learn who God is from those things.
I would not trade my life's experiences for anything period. When it's all laid out most people could not be paid to go though what I have. Not that I want to go through those things. I like everyone else wants a easy life, I just happen to know God CAN be found in the hardships IF one Ask, Seeks, and knocks for him.
Thank you for sharing your stories, Drich. I enjoyed reading them. If they really are supernatural experiences, that is truly amazing. But even if they aren't, they still helped you find God, and that's pretty amazing too.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 12:06 pm
(August 10, 2015 at 3:44 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: (August 9, 2015 at 2:43 pm)Drich Wrote: I would do whatever God told me to do. Why? Because I do not worship a specific ideology/version of morality. I worship God. Example: if religion tells you to do xyz, and let's say God says do ABC, I will always do ABC.
The only bit I was joking about is targeting the members of this board. There are plenty of atheists and that live around me to take out first.
But again, God has told us to love Him first and then each other as ourselves. So with the same zeal and effort I follow that command. Not because it is intrinsically the right thing to do, but because I love and serve God. It is only "right" to love God first and love each other, because God said so.
So what if God changed His mind?
It is far more likely that the culture changes its mind about us per our historical record, than God changing his mind on how we are to act. OK, since you've found God and will do whatever he tells you to do then walk across the Atlantic Ocean. If you say that such a thing is silly it becomes obvious that you don't really trust God. So... lets follow your logic out...
You identified that I do whatever God tells me to do.
Then you tell me to walk over the atlantic ocean.
Next you tell me if I do not, I do not trust God...
Do you not see a problem there?
If no, what you said is that either you believe your god issuing me a command to walk across the atlantic, or youre not able to reason out that you are not God, therefore you telling me to walk across the atlantic is not the same as God giving me the command. (In short Your stupid or your hope is that I'm as dumb as you would have me be.)
Quote: And if you say that God isn't aking you to do that your're ignoring what you just read. If you believe that God created everything in the universe then why would you doubt what you've just read when you write about how you believe the stories in the Bible are true?
Conformation that you are a fool.
In the bible are promises by God. ex:IF you do X He will give you 'Y'. Now to test the bible and what God said all one need do is 'X' then wait to receive 'Y'. When one receives 'Y' The bible is then verified to be true.
This exchange on the other hand is a literal fool's errand.
Quote: In this instance you are getting the message directly from God right before your very own face. All you have to do is take the first step into the ocean. You will be just fine once you start walking. But if you don't do it then you lack faith and it's off to the lake of fire with you.
Further that you are a fool, in that you believe yourself to be God or you hope I do.
Again, the bible has proven itself to be trust worthy, another thing said in the bible is that 'god'/a spirit claiming to be from God' will never ask you to say or do something not commanded to be in the bible.
Quote:Remember, Jesus walked on water and he said that if a person has true faith thatthe person would be able to do even greater things that Jesus did himself.
Again I am not so foolish as to think I am Jesus. No am in a position to judge my actions 'greater' than Christ's own works.
Quote: You won't need to take any food because God fed millions of Israelites with manna from heaven for 40 years in the desert. You won't need clothes or any special equipment because Jesus sent his disciples out to spread the Gospel without those things. The sea is calling your name. If you love God you will do this simple thing to prove it.
To say anymore would be to cast pearls before a pig.
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RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 12:09 pm
Wow drich that really says alot about you.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Posts: 13392
Threads: 187
Joined: March 18, 2012
Reputation:
48
RE: If God changed his mind
August 10, 2015 at 12:12 pm
(August 10, 2015 at 11:03 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Wait, now I'm confused.
Drich, did you even actually say you would explicitly say the prayer, "Please God give so and so cancer if that would mean they would find you?"
Or do you just simply pray more along the lines of "Please God help so and so find you in whatever way would reach them?"
Because there is a big difference between the 2 I think, and if it's merely the second one then you have been wildly misrepresented here.
I am not so foolish as to think or presume to ask God for specifics. When I do Ask God for specifics I usally get what I want which I then find out I hate, or did not see a hidden cost. I ask God to do whatever it took to make himself known to me even if it meant taking my health, wealth, and everything else I held dear. I was prepared to live the rest of my life as Job did when He was being tested. We started down that road, and I found contentment. I did not seek the easy way out, even though that is the path I was put on.
So like wise I offered to do the same for anyone here, but told them they like me would have to also ask. I think Stimbo was the only one who took me up on that offer. Shortly there after I found out my white cell count was high and I had cancer markers/porteins in the blood.
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