The questionable morality of Christianity (and Islam, for that matter)

[Pyrrho]

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You seem confused on the meaning of the term "indoctrination":

Oh no, I'm not confused about the meaning of the term -

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It's just that I see people throwing it around arbitrarily just because they don't agree with something.

Okay.

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Any teaching can be indoctrination - Or not - You can teach your kid to be a nazi and not indoctrinate him, even if nazism is wrong.

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Pretty much the only way you are going to get a child to maintain a belief in god is through indoctrination.  Children naturally have questions about things, and if that natural tendency is allowed free reign, then the child is going to eventually realize that the god story does not make sense.  Unless, of course, the child is abnormally stupid.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense - It is as likely as the child asking questions about their parents' political ideology.

Children do ask about political ideology, except when they are indoctrinated, i.e., except when they are taught to not question things, which is to say, except when they are taught to accept such things uncritically.

Very often, though, parents become unpleasant when their children ask too many questions about dearly held beliefs.  And then the children learn not to question those things.

What do you think of people who are raised secular and become religious? Those people obviously exist

I have never met anyone who fits that description.  I have heard people make claims along those lines, but when questioned about their upbringing, it has always just been that they were not brought up to be as fanatical as they are at present, not that they were raised to be secular.

So, maybe such people exist as you say, but I have never met them, and it is not obvious that they exist.

I suppose, though, that someone who hears voices might imagine that god is talking to them rather than that they have a mental problem, so it seems to be a possibility that someone who was raised to be secular could become religious.

- And considering adults have "better functioning" brains than children, I don't think it makes sense to conclude that you need to indoctrinate to teach religion.

You can teach them about religion, but that does not mean that they will believe it is true.  Think of Santa Claus (if people teach that to children in your country, this should make sense).  Eventually, they figure out that Santa isn't real.  Of course, parents don't tend to tell their children that they will burn in hell forever if they stop believing in Santa, and they do not generally push the idea as hard as they do their religious beliefs.  Or in other words, there is less indoctrination in the case of Santa than in the case of religion.

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All you need is to tell them what you believe, and you're already teaching them what it is. It is hard for me to support teachings of something I don't agree - But I can't keep my ideas coherent if I don't support the right of people to teach things I abhor - That's part of the burden.

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Do all children make the same questions? And do all children make as many questions? Some children are naturally satisfied with easy answers - When my mom told me there's a god, I believed her, she didn't force me to believe or told me I'd go to hell if I didn't - She just told me there was a god, and I believed her - I didn't ask questions.

So I guess you now believe in god.  Otherwise, you are not a counterexample to what I am claiming.  If you do not believe in god, you are an example of what I am claiming happens when a child is not indoctrinated.

I wasn't questioning the meaning of the term indoctrination, but the fact people only apply it when they don't agree with something - If you happened to be religious, you wouldn't support the idea that teaching religion is indoctrination or brainwashing, so why do you think your specific position on the issue is more valid?

Tell me, please, do you think that threatening children with eternal torture for questioning a particular belief is indoctrination?  If you don't, then what, precisely, do you think indoctrination is?

A government (a good one) should be impartial to these issues, and that includes not accepting ideological or irrelevant ideas as true or false. The right to teach religion, or politics, or morality, is a fundamental one, and it isn't indoctrination as long as you don't force shit down kids' throats. It is that simple.

Who said anything about making it illegal to teach one's children whatever one chooses to teach them?

[Spooky]

Christians (no offense, Catholic_Lady, but this is what I think in principle) keep talking about "morality" (which is questionable anyway) but there's nothing moral in brainwashing kids against their will. Kids are young and naive and believe everything the grown ups say because supposedly the grown ups don't lie. Which makes the kids the perfect subjects for manipulation and brainwashing. They're too young to be able to decide what to believe and what not to and for this brainwashing them with religion is as bad as physically raping them. Altough IMO raping their brains is worse because time will heal the physical trauma but time can not heal the mental trauma of brainwashing and that kid will remain a blind and narrow-minded fanaticized idiot for the rest of its life.

This is very close (In my mind) to the Nature VS Nurture question as many people who were indoctrinated as children grow up to be Atheist.  (Like myself).  While I agree that religion is inherently Immoral (Because it unquestionably is), Physical abuse is still a slight step above.

I can agree that it could accurately be labelled as "Abuse".

[rado84]

This is very close (In my mind) to the Nature VS Nurture question as many people who were indoctrinated as children grow up to be Atheist.  (Like myself).  While I agree that religion is inherently Immoral (Because it unquestionably is), Physical abuse is still a slight step above.

I can agree that it could accurately be labelled as "Abuse".

Read the next few posts of mine on page 1 after the OP.

[Spooky]

This is very close (In my mind) to the Nature VS Nurture question as many people who were indoctrinated as children grow up to be Atheist.  (Like myself).  While I agree that religion is inherently Immoral (Because it unquestionably is), Physical abuse is still a slight step above.

I can agree that it could accurately be labelled as "Abuse".

Read the next few posts of mine on page 1 after the OP.

I did, and I understand.

It is a very fine line between the two.

[Rekeisha]

What the fuck do I know? This is all my opinion, of course.

Why do you do that? You undermind your entire stance with that one statment. If you don't know why don't you figure it out. You ask the religious to question do you question your stance. Also why would I seek to question my stance that I am firm on if you don't even trust your own thinking?

[robvalue]

I partly threw that in for comic effect, and partly to acknowledge that mine is just one perspective on parenting and what's important in it. I can't expect everyone to agree with me.

I do agree that encouraging too much questioning early on could be counter productive, as has been mentioned! Each child is an individual and you should take your cues from them.