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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 10:16 am
(August 11, 2015 at 10:52 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 11, 2015 at 10:32 pm)pool Wrote: share share share
Certainly.
I suffered from night terrors from the ages 10-14. I had recurring nightmares of a cloaked figure continually chasing me. One night they were so bad I awoke and could not move. It literally felt as if someone was sitting on my chest. At the foot of my bed I could see a shadowy figure clearly with the help of the moonlight lighting the room. I struggled to get up and the figure kept saying "no". It wasn't until my brother got up to say that I woke him that I could move again and the figure was gone. I wet my bed routinely until I was almost 15 and averaged maybe 4 hrs of sleep per night.
I had a horrific childhood and my therapists stated that the terrors were a direct result of the psychological and emotional scarring that I endured. Perhaps but felt damn real to me.
Presumably, you have read about night terrors before, but just in case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_terror
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20032552
http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/night-terrors
If they did not seem totally real, they would not be terrifying. That is an essential part of them being night terrors.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 10:37 am
(August 11, 2015 at 8:34 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: (August 11, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have had something supernatural happen to me. My mom was there and saw it too so I know it wasn't just me.
I'm very curious what it was and also how you ruled out natural causes. But I'm happy to hear about it privately if you do not want to declare open season to the more rabid among us.
Of course. Whatever it was is personal as well as sacred for you. You shouldn't toss it around heedlessly.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 11:35 am
(This post was last modified: August 12, 2015 at 11:36 am by robvalue.)
Of course I believe that people believe they have had supernatural experiences. I'd never accuse them of lying about it. But since it's not even been demonstrated that "the supernatural" actually exists at all (and people can't agree on the definition even) I'm not going to believe anything that doesn't have evidence we can examine.
No one asked your opinion Rob.
Whoops. Oh yeah 
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 12:12 pm
(This post was last modified: August 12, 2015 at 12:13 pm by Whateverist.)
Meh, I think the category of the supernatural is an empty set. Those who don't agree seem to think that they can tell the difference between a phenomenon which we will never be able to explain and one which can't currently be explained. How else would they know what belongs in that category?
Nonetheless I have no problem giving meaning to "sacred" and contrasting it with "profane". That distinction doesn't depend on any category of supernatural things. For that matter, I don't think there is an objective fact of the matter regarding what is or can't be sacred. These things have to be vouched for by the gut, not the lobe.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 12:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 12, 2015 at 12:26 pm by robvalue.)
Yeah, that's why I prefer a definition of the supernatural which excludes anything we could ever test or interact with. Just saying we don't understand it and calling that supernatural is pretty pointless in my opinion. Why not just say unexplained? Like the word "God", it's an attempt to sneak in a load of extra qualities.
If I had to guess I'd say it is probably an empty set, yes. But by (my) definition I can't possibly know!
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 12:33 pm
That's okay. I have faith that it is an empty set.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 12, 2015 at 3:50 pm
(This post was last modified: August 12, 2015 at 3:55 pm by Tartarus Sauce.)
(August 11, 2015 at 6:12 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (August 11, 2015 at 3:06 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: It's not about whether you personally can replicate it, you stated it was beyond the capacity of all mortals.
I don't see why it would not be possible to know it's beyond the capacity of all mortals if we can appreciate it's greatness, just like I can know a certain writing is beyond my capability.
Your argument it's because we can appreciate, it's within our capability. But with that our argument, I should be capable of replicating any writing that I can appreciate it's greatness.
No that was very much not my argument. I only brought in appreciation so I could mention the Voynich Manuscript as an example of just how broad the scope of human imagination is.
My argument was that since the Quran is understandable, interpretable, and translatable by humans, it is evident that the ideas contained within its pages are at least capable of having been generated within a human mind. This is to counter your claim that you find it impossible for its authorship to have originated from a mortal source.
In order for us to understand a message we must understand the underlying base concepts that the message or idea is composed of. This applies to even paradoxical concepts. For example, we cannot conceive of what a square-circle could look like since there would be no way for us to envision a shape independent from either a square or a circle by itself that manages to equally retain the properties of both simultaneously that makes any logical sense to us. But we understand the underlying concepts that compose this idea of a square-circle, and since we understand these underlying components, we therefore recognize it's an irrational idea.
Yet it's still an idea that we can communicate, and we can understand the idea of a square-circle even though we can't imagine it's design or mathematically describe its properties, but we can still have thoughts about it and communicate about it. It has only transcended our capacity to envision it, not our ability to conceive of it in the abstract or communicate about it.
If an idea is capable of being communicated and understood by others, it is capable of being thought about, which means it's possible for the idea to be generated from a human mind. In order for something to be literally beyond the scope of creation from any human mind, it must transcend the capacity for a human mind to think about it, and anything that can still be comprehensibly communicated to or understood by at least one human mind has not transcended our limit of thought. That is the crux of my argument.
I'm not saying for the sake of this argument that this is definitive proof that the Quran was authored solely by thoughts generated from a human mind, I very much do believe that was the case, but that is not the purpose of my counter argument. What I'm asserting is that since all the ideas within the Quran are communicated through a common medium and understandable to humans, it has not transcended our capacity of thought and therefore, in principle, could have been conceived from a human mind.
freedomfromfallacy » I'm weighing my tears to see if the happy ones weigh the same as the sad ones.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 13, 2015 at 7:26 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2015 at 7:30 pm by Mystic.)
I can know a writing is beyond my own capability, despite being able to appreciate it's greatness. If this is true, why can't I know a writing is beyond all human capability just because I can appreciate it (to a degree)?
One of the appreciative qualities of the Quran, the more you study it and more you think about it, the more majestic it get's and people don't get bored of reading it. Whole new images of a Surah take in the heart the more keys are unlocked with reflection with respect to other parts of the Quran. There is an image within a image, and interior to an interior.
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 13, 2015 at 8:54 pm
(August 12, 2015 at 10:37 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: (August 11, 2015 at 8:34 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: I'm very curious what it was and also how you ruled out natural causes. But I'm happy to hear about it privately if you do not want to declare open season to the more rabid among us.
Of course. Whatever it was is personal as well as sacred for you. You shouldn't toss it around heedlessly.
That is exactly right, my friend. 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists, what does faith mean to you?
August 13, 2015 at 9:23 pm
Why is it that myself and perhaps most atheists here and those I know personally don't have supernatural experiences?
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