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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 1, 2015 at 11:07 am
(This post was last modified: August 1, 2015 at 12:14 pm by IATIA.)
(August 1, 2015 at 10:48 am)ktrap Wrote: This is your misunderstanding. Within an infinite realm, this universe is created and expanding.
Why must an infinite realm need time? If you think time is needed then God has an infinite amount of time to create the universe.
Nope! Obviously you cannot see beyond your god and refuse to accept my statements.
Scenario one; There is time which presents infinite regression and we are not here as an infinity can NEVER pass.
Scenario two; There is no time which means there is no causality and there cannot be a 'before' the universe for god to create the universe.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 1, 2015 at 11:09 am
(This post was last modified: August 1, 2015 at 11:11 am by Mr.wizard.)
I don't see how you can have a first cause without time? Every effect is preceded by its cause, without time how can a cause come before an effect if the concepts of before and after do not exist?
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 1, 2015 at 11:23 am
(This post was last modified: August 1, 2015 at 11:38 am by IATIA.)
Ergo, the problem with everything? First cause is a problem in and of itself. What was before the first cause and what generated the first cause. Causality on any level leads to infinite regression. To eliminate infinite regression, everything possible must just 'be'. We simply are 'aware' of a linear progression of probabilities. For all intents and purposes, there is no past, future or even now, only an awareness of a single probability at any moment.
(edit)
If first cause can 'just be', then everything can 'just be'.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 1, 2015 at 11:32 am
Not to mention you can't just a priori your god into existence -_-
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 1, 2015 at 10:08 pm
(August 1, 2015 at 12:28 am)ktrap Wrote: (July 30, 2015 at 11:03 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: That's your evidence? Bitch, please.
Don't know about you, but I came from two parents. Your gawd had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
That is very shallow, you are unable to go beyond one generation to figure out where you came from?
I really don't think my grand parents were involved. If they were...
Ewwwww!
You didn't ask for a genealogy dip-shit. You asked where I came from (more precisely, told me to ask myself). From my parents is the simplest, most direct answer. Got a problem with that? Call someone who gives a shit.
So, you gonna pony up some actual evidence or are you going to (like damned near every theist I've seen around here) stick to personal testimony, logical fallacies and tons of bullshit?
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:19 am
(August 1, 2015 at 10:57 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: If spontaneous creation means the Universe can get started from nothing with no gods to help it, then, yeah, I believe that's possible. I also believe it's possible that some form of material reality has always existed. Which is it? Hell if I know. Neither model requires god, though, let alone some magical consciousness that lives in everything.
Spontaneous creation is a fluke just like spontaneous generation which was dispelled by Louis Pasteur in the 19 century. Therefore this whole notion of coming from nothing is not science but science fiction.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:24 am
(This post was last modified: August 3, 2015 at 11:25 am by Kingpin.)
(August 1, 2015 at 11:23 am)IATIA Wrote: If first cause can 'just be', then everything can 'just be'.
I don't see the logical conclusion from your premise. Unless you are assuming that everything in existence has always existed (even you) but perhaps in a different form or state (Pantheism)? Just because one thing can be something does not mean everything can also be that. Everything physical no matter how you slice it can only explain its existence outside itself.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am
(This post was last modified: August 3, 2015 at 11:39 am by ktrap.)
(August 1, 2015 at 10:08 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: (August 1, 2015 at 12:28 am)ktrap Wrote: That is very shallow, you are unable to go beyond one generation to figure out where you came from?
I really don't think my grand parents were involved. If they were...
Ewwwww!
You didn't ask for a genealogy dip-shit. You asked where I came from (more precisely, told me to ask myself). From my parents is the simplest, most direct answer. Got a problem with that? Call someone who gives a shit.
So, you gonna pony up some actual evidence or are you going to (like damned near every theist I've seen around here) stick to personal testimony, logical fallacies and tons of bullshit?
Sorry that I did not elaborate for you. I would of thought most would have understood the question. Let me make it easy for the challenged. Please tell us how you got here starting from big bang to now?
(August 1, 2015 at 10:20 am)IATIA Wrote: (July 31, 2015 at 7:01 pm)ktrap Wrote: But is God created? No, God is the first cause. Well how is that possible? It's possible because one of God's attributes is infinity (an infinite being) and infinity has no beginning and no end, therefore God is the first cause.
If god has been around for an 'infinity', then we would not be here as an infinite amount of time has not passed, nor ever will.
If god is placed 'outside' time, then our universe must be outside time as well.
If both are outside time, then there is no causality and everything just 'is'.
Without time god could not create the universe because there was no 'before there was a universe'.
Is time some atomic (or subatomic) particle? How can time even come into the equation without an observer to measure it. Therefore, first you need an observer and then time can begin, not the other way around. In the case of the creation of the universe God existed prior to it in order for time to start. And as I said before God is infinite and has infinite amount of time. According to General Relativity time is relative not absolute. The creation of the universe is on a different clock than God's own, that is why time can exist outside this universe.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:54 am
(August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am)ktrap Wrote: Is time some atomic (or subatomic) particle? How can time even come into the equation without an observer to measure it. Therefore, first you need an observer and then time can begin, not the other way around. In the case of the creation of the universe God existed prior to it in order for time to start. And as I said before God is infinite and has infinite amount of time. According to General Relativity time is relative not absolute. The creation of the universe is on a different clock than God's own, that is why time can exist outside this universe.
Please tell us more about your understanding of General relativity and particle physics, I'm sure a nobel prize awaits...
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: August 3, 2015 at 12:00 pm by robvalue.)
But my God has double infinite time, and made your God. (Everything needs a creator, except my god.)
And he has some awesome T-shirts.
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