Hello, i am a real Christian

[True Christian]

..., but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

But until now you didn't post a single example for that. I also think it is impossible to proof this statement as well as the other one, as we all do not know, how a world without religion would look like.
However, all this does not show the existence of god (even if you could proof it).

I have posted a lot explaining the good things religion has done, ill try again with my main examples

-Most of the education and medicine was provided by the churches and monasteries
-Most of the first charity organizations were religious. And dont say it was because they were organized, there were plenty of organizations of all kinds at all times.

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You are not reading what i am trying to communicate...yes bad things have been done in the name of religion, but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

SO... There is nothing that religious have done that could not been done by secular means...I thank no religion for good things that happen its the PEOPLE in the religion that do good things not the religion its self..... But when you throw hate mongering dogma into the mix here come the atrocities....

This is your opinion, i do not share it, because again, most charity organizations are done in the name of religion.

[Darwinian]

-About the last part of your post, tell me one bad thing that religion has done that could not have been done anyway by violent, immoral and selfish individuals

1) Islamic Jihads

2) Aztec Human Sacrifice

3) Roman Persecution of Christians

4) The Witch Hunts

5) The Inquisition

6) Mountain Meadows Massacre

7) Thuggee Murders

8) Buddhist Burma

Just for starters. I could go on... and on, and on, and on................

[darkwolf176]

-About the last part of your post, tell me one bad thing that religion has done that could not have been done anyway by violent, immoral and selfish individuals

1) Islamic Jihads

2) Aztec Human Sacrifice

3) Roman Persecution of Christians

4) The Witch Hunts

5) The Inquisition

6) Mountain Meadows Massacre

7) Thuggee Murders

8) Buddhist Burma

Just for starters. I could go on... and on, and on, and on................

Don't forget the crusades!

[Darwinian]

This is your opinion, i do not share it, because again, most charity organizations are done in the name of religion.

Give evidence here please. I just went through a list of some of the worlds most recognised charities and only about 5% where affiliated with religion. Not really 'most' is it.

[True Christian]

-many atheists have a presumption that any belief is wrong, and will only look at a belief starting with that presumption.

No, you've got that all wrong. It's called burden of proof . If you make a claim, you must back it up with sufficient evidence before we accept the claim. If we do not accept the claim that does not mean we think the opposite is true. This is one of the first rules of logic that you should learn if you really want to debate with us. You are making the claim that God and Jesus exist. You have failed to provide evidence of Jesus, you referenced the Gospels, that's it. But lookie here, I've already given a brief summary of why the Gospels are not sufficient evidence for Jesus.

Also you really might benefit from this video, which gives a basic break down of burden of proof, logical arguments, and how lacking a belief doesn't not equal asserting that belief is untrue

I do not overgeneralize. I deliberately use the term "many atheists" to say that i sont think ALL atheists or the VAST MAJORITY of atheists are a certain way.

I do not mean the burden of proof. I mean that many atheists have the exact same behavior as fundamentalist christians: when they see a theist saying something, theur first instinct is to say it is wrong. And even when it makes sense, they would rather prove it wrong with bad logic than agree with it.

[Thor]

All of that is actually not that hard to believe, once you acknowledge the possibility of a supernatural, all-powerful being.

Wow. Yeah, I guess it's not hard to believe that the sun moves through the sky because it's attached to Apollo's chariot once you acknowledge the possibility of a supernatural, all-powerful being.

That sound you just heard was reason and logic going kersplat on the sidewalk.

[Eilonnwy]

I do not overgeneralize. I deliberately use the term "many atheists" to say that i sont think ALL atheists or the VAST MAJORITY of atheists are a certain way.

I do not mean the burden of proof. I mean that many atheists have the exact same behavior as fundamentalist christians: when they see a theist saying something, theur first instinct is to say it is wrong. And even when it makes sense, they would rather prove it wrong with bad logic than agree with it.

That's a nice looking strawman you got there.

[Xyster]

This is your opinion, i do not share it, because again, most charity organizations are done in the name of religion.

yea in the NAME of ... so what?!? PEOPLE made it happen not some sky daddy... there are good things that come out of EVERY religion not just yours... and its becouse of the HUMAN factor in the religion and not the GOD factor.... If it was JUST the GOD factor then only one religion would have good stuff come out of it but its not .... so good stuff comming out of religion (most if not all religions) not only dose this not back up your belief in a god but CONTRADICTS it. ....

[Atheist_named_Christian]

-many atheists have a presumption that any belief is wrong, and will only look at a belief starting with that presumption.

No, you've got that all wrong. It's called burden of proof . If you make a claim, you must back it up with sufficient evidence before we accept the claim. If we do not accept the claim that does not mean we think the opposite is true. This is one of the first rules of logic that you should learn if you really want to debate with us. You are making the claim that God and Jesus exist. You have failed to provide evidence of Jesus, you referenced the Gospels, that's it. But lookie here, I've already given a brief summary of why the Gospels are not sufficient evidence for Jesus.

Also you really might benefit from this video, which gives a basic break down of burden of proof, logical arguments, and how lacking a belief doesn't not equal asserting that belief is untrue

I do not overgeneralize. I deliberately use the term "many atheists" to say that i sont think ALL atheists or the VAST MAJORITY of atheists are a certain way.

I do not mean the burden of proof. I mean that many atheists have the exact same behavior as fundamentalist christians: when they see a theist saying something, theur first instinct is to say it is wrong. And even when it makes sense, they would rather prove it wrong with bad logic than agree with it.

I think you already started out wrongly, as we do not have the presumption that belief is bad. According to my dictionary, a presumption is "an act or instance of taking something to be true or adopting a particular attitude toward something, esp. at the start of a chain of argument or action". As most atheists (or their ancestors) were believers one day, we all started out at with the presumption that god exists (we were raised in this believe!). I came to the conclusion that there is no god through reason and logic - therefore, that I consider god dead is a conclusion, not a presumption.
And what you describe is called antitheism, by the way, not atheism. Atheism means you do not believe in a god but you can still consider believe right or wrong. I am, however, both.

[True Christian]

-About the last part of your post, tell me one bad thing that religion has done that could not have been done anyway by violent, immoral and selfish individuals

1) Islamic Jihads

2) Aztec Human Sacrifice

3) Roman Persecution of Christians

4) The Witch Hunts

5) The Inquisition

6) Mountain Meadows Massacre

7) Thuggee Murders

8) Buddhist Burma

Just for starters. I could go on... and on, and on, and on................

Alright, thats a challenge

1) Mass murders have been done in the names of conquest, ethnicity, or vengeance. War is not a religious idea.

2) At the end of a battle, the Celts used to kill the last man who arrived in combat. This is a sacrifice to encourage a certain type of behaviour, is that not what we are talking about here ?

3)Back to 1), discrimination has been done for many reasons, not only religion.

4) Witch Hunts: what about what was practised against communists in ths US during the Cold War ? communists being beaten up or jailed or even killed for their ideas that didnt fit in with the rest of the people. They were CALLED Witch Hunts. After WW2, in Europe many people who had been suspected of conspiring with the Nazis were humiliated or hung, even though some of them have been proven to have been innocents.

5) Back to the Witch Hunts. Also the Inquisition has been dramatically overemphasized over the centuries. Witch Hunts and the Inquisition actually killed far less people than what is believed.

6) This Massacre wasnt caused by religion alone, only by religious people, and not because of their faith.

7) it was a small minority, also back to 1)

8) i do not know what that is, sorry :/

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All of that is actually not that hard to believe, once you acknowledge the possibility of a supernatural, all-powerful being.

Wow. Yeah, I guess it's not hard to believe that the sun moves through the sky because it's attached to Apollo's chariot once you acknowledge the possibility of a supernatural, all-powerful being.

That sound you just heard was reason and logic going kersplat on the sidewalk.

The Gospels are the only proof we have of the existence of those miracles. I do not believe in the crossing of the Red Sea because there is no evidence to show it happened, while the Gospels all write about the same miracles.