JUST OPEN YOUR HEART, DAMMIT!

[ignoramus]

Yes, you are on a roll!
But ladies and gentlemen, I've discovered Rob's secret.
Meet his personal Oracles

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[Redbeard The Pink]

Rob, you'd better not have usurped the position of Santa Claus unless you also want to wind up having a duel with the Wizard of a whole town. I've been in line for that job since I was born, and the current (previous?) Santa was and is my close friend and mentor. He was pretty healthy and probably wouldn't have died naturally for another 100 years or so. Do I need to avenge Santa Claus and claim my rightful place on the Red Throne?

[robvalue]

Uhm... No it's OK, I'm a different kind of Santa. I drop thoughts into people's heads at Christmas and also every Monday evening.

Ignor: one thing I don't know is if I can stop my head exploding from the cuteness...

[Randy Carson]

Furthermore, you could claim anything exists as long as there isn't evidence to say that it doesn't.

You can't prove Santa doesn't exist! On December 24th I left cookies and milk by the tree, and when I woke up the next day the cookies and milk were gone and there was presents under the tree. You can't explain that. Thus, Santa is real!

Alternatively, we could send an expeditionary group to the North Pole to find Santa's Workshop. Failing to do so, we might conclude that this (and other similar shortcomings) renders the Santa story untenable.

[LostLocke]

Furthermore, you could claim anything exists as long as there isn't evidence to say that it doesn't.

You can't prove Santa doesn't exist! On December 24th I left cookies and milk by the tree, and when I woke up the next day the cookies and milk were gone and there was presents under the tree. You can't explain that. Thus, Santa is real!

Alternatively, we could send an expeditionary group to the North Pole to find Santa's Workshop. Failing to do so, we might conclude that this (and other similar shortcomings) renders the Santa story untenable.

But when you send someone to the North Pole to find Santa (assuming that that's even where Santa is "truely" located), Santa just moves. Maybe he's really in the sky. Nope not there. Maybe he's really on the moon. Nope not there. Maybe.... awe screw it, maybe Santa is really just outside space and time.

[Randy Carson]

Alternatively, we could send an expeditionary group to the North Pole to find Santa's Workshop. Failing to do so, we might conclude that this (and other similar shortcomings) renders the Santa story untenable.

But when you send someone to the North Pole to find Santa (assuming that that's even where Santa is "truely" located), Santa just moves. Maybe he's really in the sky. Nope not there. Maybe he's really on the moon. Nope not there. Maybe.... awe screw it, maybe Santa is really just outside space and time.

Oh.

[Bob Kelso]

Or we could assume that those millions were donated to the poor, while a reasonable sum was kept to purchase and run less, but suitable, expensive housing for their parishioners. 

I suppose that would be far too giving though. 

I understand what you're trying to say, but there is another aspect of this that I did not cover in my response above: namely, is it fitting to give our best to an almighty God?

IOW, people donate money to a church not to make the pastor wealthy but because they want to give to God. And not just money, but time and talent, as well. If God exists, are we going to be chintzy in our buildings that are designed to magnify and glorify him? Are we going to go cheap on the carpeting and the choir robes and the floral arrangements? (Do you think the angels in heaven are wearing hand-me-downs or playing second-hand harps?  )

Apologies for the late reply, and if anyone else responded to this already, I've been rather busy this week. 

What use does your god get out of these things, Randy? Honestly now. 

Often lauded by your brothers and sisters as the most giving and loving deity, is he really just so self-absorbed that he would rather funds be spent on ostentatious buildings and set ups in stead of the poor and the otherwise needy? 

Something to think about while you're getting your story straight as to who your god is.

See, people LOVE God and want to show their love and gratitude for what He has done for them in tangible ways. How then can the Church take the money which was donated in order to by a pipe organ or a stain-glassed window and say, "Well, that's all very nice, but we have a better idea of what to do with your offering to God than you do."

It's a fun way for non-believers to hammer Christians, of course, but it's not as simple as the meme portrays or as Min believes.

*My bold*

I daresay they damn well could. 

"Oy, folks, we know we took a donation for a new pipe organ but we really feel we should donate that money to the starving children in Africa instead."

Who the hell would have a problem with that other than some asshole? 

[Redbeard The Pink]

Furthermore, you could claim anything exists as long as there isn't evidence to say that it doesn't.

You can't prove Santa doesn't exist! On December 24th I left cookies and milk by the tree, and when I woke up the next day the cookies and milk were gone and there was presents under the tree. You can't explain that. Thus, Santa is real!

Alternatively, we could send an expeditionary group to the North Pole to find Santa's Workshop. Failing to do so, we might conclude that this (and other similar shortcomings) renders the Santa story untenable.

Ahem...as a former workshop elf, I'll field this one. I'm by far the most advanced Santa apologist here.


First off, before any of you even start, most of what you idiot humans refer to as Santa's "elves" are actually either gnomes, leprechauns, or magic-blooded children like myself. There are very few actual elves at the North Pole. I'm mostly human and leprechaun with a smattering of werewolf, phoenix, dragon, troll, and honestly I'm not quite sure what else at this point. I worked in that glorified sweat shop from the 2nd grade up through probably the 4th (which in dream time is a lot longer than you'd think).


Now, humans have been to the North Pole, and all they've found is Ice. Why? Because Santa doesn't live on the ice, or even within it. To have a permanent foundation, they had to build that thing directly on the crust of the Earth, far beneath the Arctic Ocean. There's no way in or out except by magic, and even if humans could get close there's an advanced warning system that teleports the whole operation to the South Pole if anyone gets near enough to discover us down there. If somebody came for us at both poles, the shop would just teleport somewhere else, and I'm not telling you where because that's classified information.


Now, as to the cookies and milk thing, that brings up another question: what about kids who "figure out" that their parents are Santa Claus? Some kids reason it out or get told by their parents, and some actually catch their parents in the act of eating the cookies and setting out the presents. The explanation for this is simple: that's the punishment for really bad kids, and for kids who are awake when Santa gets to their house.



You see, Santa knows when you're sleeping, and when you're awake, and if you've been bad or good. Once you stop believing in him, he'll never come to your house to give you presents again. If he's about to get to your house and he knows you won't be asleep when he gets there, he gives the presents to the parents and makes them set the presents out. That way if you catch them they'll take the fall, you'll stop believing in Santa, and he'll never bring you any more presents because of how bad you were to be awake and roaming around the house when you should have been in bed dreaming of sugar plums.


Some kids are even so bad that Santa just phones ahead and tells the parents or some mean older kid to come along and wreck Christmas early by telling a kid that Santa isn't real so they'll stop believing. He doesn't do this himself because you can hardly stand in front of someone and tell them you don't exist, and again he likes to have a fall guy to keep up his good image rather than just telling a kid they've been so bad that he's done with them forever.


Now, some people might chime in and say, "Ok Redbeard, I'm a parent, and I can admit to putting presents out for my kids every Christmas. Santa never came to our house. He's not real." The explanation for this is, again, simple: that's also part of the punishment for not believing in Santa. When you're young and foolish and don't realize how it works, you stop believing in Santa. Then, when you're grown up and you want your kids to have fun at Christmas and believe in Santa, he still won't come to your house because you don't think he's real, so you have to do all that work yourself instead of letting Santa do it for you, and you find yourself wishing that Santa were real because it would make your life less expensive and miserable at Christmas...and Santa sits back and laughs at the cruel irony he has inflicted on you...



Did I mention Santa is basically an amoral sociopathic monster? You really shouldn't let that guy anywhere near your kids.

[Randy Carson]

I understand what you're trying to say, but there is another aspect of this that I did not cover in my response above: namely, is it fitting to give our best to an almighty God?

IOW, people donate money to a church not to make the pastor wealthy but because they want to give to God. And not just money, but time and talent, as well. If God exists, are we going to be chintzy in our buildings that are designed to magnify and glorify him? Are we going to go cheap on the carpeting and the choir robes and the floral arrangements? (Do you think the angels in heaven are wearing hand-me-downs or playing second-hand harps?  )

Apologies for the late reply, and if anyone else responded to this already, I've been rather busy this week. 

What use does your god get out of these things, Randy? Honestly now. 

Often lauded by your brothers and sisters as the most giving and loving deity, is he really just so self-absorbed that he would rather funds be spent on ostentatious buildings and set ups in stead of the poor and the otherwise needy? 

Something to think about while you're getting your story straight as to who your god is.

Does the worship of God benefit Him? Or us?

See, people LOVE God and want to show their love and gratitude for what He has done for them in tangible ways. How then can the Church take the money which was donated in order to by a pipe organ or a stain-glassed window and say, "Well, that's all very nice, but we have a better idea of what to do with your offering to God than you do."

It's a fun way for non-believers to hammer Christians, of course, but it's not as simple as the meme portrays or as Min believes.

*My bold*

I daresay they damn well could. 

"Oy, folks, we know we took a donation for a new pipe organ but we really feel we should donate that money to the starving children in Africa instead."

Who the hell would have a problem with that other than some asshole?

Let's say that a wealthy individual dies and leaves a sizable sum of money to her church with the stipulation that it be used to purchase a new gymnasium for the youth ministry. Can the Church can legally accept the money earmarked for that purpose but divert the funds to starving children in Africa, instead?

Now, let's consider the value of Church growth. If a group of 200 Christians forms a new church in a storefront of an old strip mall, they will put up some signs and attract a few new members. So, at 250 members, they rent out a larger space in an old warehouse near the airport. And they attract a few more members. At 500 members, they buy a small church that another denomination had for sale. Then they grow some more.

At every stage of growth, people are hearing the gospel and being saved. Baptisms, weddings, funerals happen. And the collection gets larger and larger and larger...which means that even MORE money is sent to Africa.

Or they could have sent all their money to Africa in the beginning, never built up the physical buildings, never attracted the youth with a rocking band, etc. Staying small, they would have nothing more to send.

Surely there is a balance to be found in here somewhere.

[Bob Kelso]

Does the worship of God benefit Him? Or us?

*Forgot about this thread  *

You know my answer, Randy, but I suppose the Christian answer is that it benefits the believer. Does it follow that, in providing, he wishes that an excess of resources be used for extravagant wants or the needs of people who cannot provide for themselves?

Let's say that a wealthy individual dies and leaves a sizable sum of money to her church with the stipulation that it be used to purchase a new gymnasium for the youth ministry. Can the Church can legally accept the money earmarked for that purpose but divert the funds to starving children in Africa, instead?

I get where you're going but let's look at this realistically, it's entirely dependent upon the situation. Are their specific requirements on how the money is to be utilized? Should the gym be built and outfitted for a reasonable price -meaning it's not top of the line, but reliable- can the remainder be used for charitable services? 

It's really pointless to go further on this because I'm not of the opinion that the church shouldn't have decent resources for it's own purposes; but the level of extravagance we see from megachurches and what have you is what I balk at from a religious community that pats themselves on the back for being the epitome of charity.

Now, let's consider the value of Church growth. If a group of 200 Christians forms a new church in a storefront of an old strip mall, they will put up some signs and attract a few new members. So, at 250 members, they rent out a larger space in an old warehouse near the airport. And they attract a few more members. At 500 members, they buy a small church that another denomination had for sale. Then they grow some more.

At every stage of growth, people are hearing the gospel and being saved. Baptisms, weddings, funerals happen. And the collection gets larger and larger and larger...which means that even MORE money is sent to Africa.

Or they could have sent all their money to Africa in the beginning, never built up the physical buildings, never attracted the youth with a rocking band, etc. Staying small, they would have nothing more to send.

Surely there is a balance to be found in here somewhere.

Balance? Yes. Massive amounts of needless bullshit? Not so much. 

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