JUST OPEN YOUR HEART, DAMMIT!

[Bob Kelso]

:hide:
They have managed this.....


:/hide:

Let's assume for a moment that the building pictured was sold and that all the money was donated to the poor.

Okay, now what?

The money is all gone, the people get hungry again and the Church has nowhere to meet to A) worship God and B) provide childcare for working mothers and networking opportunities for the unemployed as well as plan the charity work that would actually feed and shelter the poor for the long haul rather than just the few meals they got from the proceeds.

Wealth works best when it is accumulated and put to work in large quantities.

It's hard to think through these issues clearly when you're bitter and angry, Min, but Jesus loves you, and you should go to confession while you still can.

You're not getting any younger, you know.

Or we could assume that those millions were donated to the poor, while a reasonable sum was kept to purchase and run less, but suitable, expensive housing for their parishioners. 

I suppose that would be far too giving though. 

[Athene]

Relax, Sparky...take it easy, before you burst a vessel. I don't get your Holy Spirit fetish, or what it is that you seem to need for me to say......what's my line here?

You as a Christian, are in fact promoting Biblical magic. Christians, hypocritically refuse to call it magic, but face it GC...that's exactly what it is. The Bible clearly says that your god spoke the world into existence....no mistaking it. That is a spell. A magic spell. Without a tremendous belief in magic, it is impossible to be true believer. All that you seem to be pushing is magic beliefs. You shouldn't get bent out of shape because people can't accept that
magic is real. Come on, GC. Be reasonable.

Words mean things, and they have connotations that can be positive or negative.

Atheists like to use the word "magic" because it demeans God because of its connotations of things that are false or done by some form of trickery that is not understood by the audience but to the magician alone. Now, if you are referring to magic as in Wicca, etc. well, yes, there are ways of tapping into supernatural powers, but fooling with the "Dark Side" is not very wise in the long run.

While the authority and power of God are not really understood by us, either, the parallel is of limited value generally, and I think we both know that you use it because you know it is offensive to theists. That's my bet, anyway.

You bet wrong, Randy Carson. Some Christians choose to apply the term magic to Wicca, paganism and the darkside alone.  Almost everyone understands that magic can be defined as illusion or trickery used in showbiz. Magic is most commonly defined as any event that occurs through supernatural means and/or having supernatural powers. Supernatural events and powers are things that take place outside  the laws of nature. Clearly, the Bible describes oodles and oodles of shit that takes place outside of the laws of nature. That is by definition, magic. I'm sorry, but it just is. It doesn't matter that you don't like that particular definition of magic, or that you only want it to be used in reference to The Darkside. Christianity requires a belief in magic. I don't say that to offend you. It's simply a statement of fact.

[Randy Carson]

Or we could assume that those millions were donated to the poor, while a reasonable sum was kept to purchase and run less, but suitable, expensive housing for their parishioners. 

I suppose that would be far too giving though. 

I understand what you're trying to say, but there is another aspect of this that I did not cover in my response above: namely, is it fitting to give our best to an almighty God?

IOW, people donate money to a church not to make the pastor wealthy but because they want to give to God. And not just money, but time and talent, as well. If God exists, are we going to be chintzy in our buildings that are designed to magnify and glorify him? Are we going to go cheap on the carpeting and the choir robes and the floral arrangements? (Do you think the angels in heaven are wearing hand-me-downs or playing second-hand harps?  )

See, people LOVE God and want to show their love and gratitude for what He has done for them in tangible ways. How then can the Church take the money which was donated in order to by a pipe organ or a stain-glassed window and say, "Well, that's all very nice, but we have a better idea of what to do with your offering to God than you do."

It's a fun way for non-believers to hammer Christians, of course, but it's not as simple as the meme portrays or as Min believes.

[Randy Carson]

Words mean things, and they have connotations that can be positive or negative.

Atheists like to use the word "magic" because it demeans God because of its connotations of things that are false or done by some form of trickery that is not understood by the audience but to the magician alone. Now, if you are referring to magic as in Wicca, etc. well, yes, there are ways of tapping into supernatural powers, but fooling with the "Dark Side" is not very wise in the long run.

While the authority and power of God are not really understood by us, either, the parallel is of limited value generally, and I think we both know that you use it because you know it is offensive to theists. That's my bet, anyway.

You bet wrong, Randy Carson. Some Christians choose to apply the term magic to Wicca, paganism and the darkside alone.  Almost everyone understands that magic can be defined as illusion or trickery used in showbiz. Magic is most commonly defined as any event that occurs through supernatural means and/or having supernatural powers. Supernatural events and powers are things that take place outside  the laws of nature. Clearly, the Bible describes oodles and oodles of shit that takes place outside of the laws of nature. That is by definition magic.I'm sorry, but it just is. It doesn't matter that you don't like that particular definition of magic, or that you only want it to be used in reference to The Darkside. Christianity requires a belief in magic. I don't say that to offend you. It's simply a statement of fact.

In the course of 2,000 years of Christianity, do you think that God's omnipotence has been referred to as magic by Christians?

If not, why not?

[Redbeard The Pink]

You bet wrong, Randy Carson. Some Christians choose to apply the term magic to Wicca, paganism and the darkside alone.  Almost everyone understands that magic can be defined as illusion or trickery used in showbiz. Magic is most commonly defined as any event that occurs through supernatural means and/or having supernatural powers. Supernatural events and powers are things that take place outside  the laws of nature. Clearly, the Bible describes oodles and oodles of shit that takes place outside of the laws of nature. That is by definition magic.I'm sorry, but it just is. It doesn't matter that you don't like that particular definition of magic, or that you only want it to be used in reference to The Darkside. Christianity requires a belief in magic. I don't say that to offend you. It's simply a statement of fact.

In the course of 2,000 years of Christianity, do you think that God's omnipotence has been referred to as magic by Christians?

If not, why not?

No, I've noticed they tend to use the word "miracle," but Thena's right. They're magic tricks. It's the same thing.

Magic: the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces

Miracle: an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Such an event may be attributed to a supernatural being (god or gods), a miracle worker, a saint or a religious leader.

Miracles are nothing more than a god-people term for white magic. They could just call it white magic, but then they'd be admitting their connections to paganism, so they've found a more suitable word for an equally ridiculous idea.

[Athene]

You bet wrong, Randy Carson. Some Christians choose to apply the term magic to Wicca, paganism and the darkside alone.  Almost everyone understands that magic can be defined as illusion or trickery used in showbiz. Magic is most commonly defined as any event that occurs through supernatural means and/or having supernatural powers. Supernatural events and powers are things that take place outside  the laws of nature. Clearly, the Bible describes oodles and oodles of shit that takes place outside of the laws of nature. That is by definition magic.I'm sorry, but it just is. It doesn't matter that you don't like that particular definition of magic, or that you only want it to be used in reference to The Darkside. Christianity requires a belief in magic. I don't say that to offend you. It's simply a statement of fact.

In the course of 2,000 years of Christianity, do you think that God's omnipotence has been referred to as magic by Christians?

If not, why not?

I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that you're basically making a case for magic, yet don't want it to be called magic. That just doesn't makes sense.
Btw, I make a reasonable effort to not offend people most of the the time. But, I think it's ridiculous that you think I shouldn't use a word that is in fact, correct in describing your omnipotent God's attributes and a myriad of Biblical claims as well.  I'm not a member of your club, Randy. I'm not going to disregard a perfectly accurate word in order to go along with someone's fantasy.

[robvalue]

Call it supernatural powers if you like.

The fact that no one ever gives the slightest indication of how these powers are supposed to work shows that they do not understand them, nor could it be possible for them to actually know about them.

WHAT ABOUT GRAVITY?!!! We see the effects of gravity constantly. We can model it accurately, so we understand its effects. We make predictions and we test them. That's science. Don't make crappy equivocations. Really, stop it! Stop!

"He just does stuff" is neither accurate, specific, testable nor useful. We haven't learnt a single thing by jumping to this conclusion by the argument from ignorance. We've just given up on scientific inquiry because it's too hard or isn't getting answers fast enough.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

You bet wrong, Randy Carson. Some Christians choose to apply the term magic to Wicca, paganism and the darkside alone.  Almost everyone understands that magic can be defined as illusion or trickery used in showbiz. Magic is most commonly defined as any event that occurs through supernatural means and/or having supernatural powers. Supernatural events and powers are things that take place outside  the laws of nature. Clearly, the Bible describes oodles and oodles of shit that takes place outside of the laws of nature. That is by definition magic.I'm sorry, but it just is. It doesn't matter that you don't like that particular definition of magic, or that you only want it to be used in reference to The Darkside. Christianity requires a belief in magic. I don't say that to offend you. It's simply a statement of fact.

In the course of 2,000 years of Christianity, do you think that God's omnipotence has been referred to as magic by Christians?

If not, why not?

No, because most christians know magic is fake. They don't like that word to be associated with their fairy tale story.

[Athene]

Call it supernatural powers if you like.

The fact that no one ever gives the slightest indication of how these powers are supposed to work shows that they do not understand them, nor could it be possible for them to actually know about them.

WHAT ABOUT GRAVITY?!!! We see the effects of gravity constantly. We can model it accurately, so we understand its effects. We make predictions and we test them. That's science. Don't make crappy equivocations. Really, stop it! Stop!

"He just does stuff" is neither accurate, specific, testable nor useful. We haven't learnt a single thing by jumping to this conclusion by the argument from ignorance. We've just given up on scientific inquiry because it's too hard or isn't getting answers fast enough.

Many Christians do not want to be burdened with thinking. That's why magic is the go-to answer for anything they can't explain or don't want to accept. You can tell them magic is not real all day, every day and it won't make a difference. If they're like Randy, they'll feign phony outrage over semantics. In reality, they're frustrated because atheists won't consider make-believe magic to be evidence of god.

[Homeless Nutter]

No, because most christians know magic is fake. [...]

That's debatable. Most christians I know believe in some form of superstition, not supported - and often outright rejected - by their denominations' doctrines (like witches, charms, vampires, or homeopathy).
Of course - people who run religious rackets know very well that magic is fake, which is why they usually portray "foreign" superstitions as "evil forces", or "black magic". Flat out telling the believers, that spiritual fakery is possible and in fact common could potentially teach them some critical thinking.

They don't like that word to be associated with their fairy tale story.

Interestingly, this is the same exact reason, why they don't call their fairy tale story - a fairy tale story.