Problems with Christian Church

[Kingpin]

Would you simply prohibit any sharing of beliefs in order to qualify for tax-exempt status?

Yes.

As a Christian, so would I.

Beliefs are personal and as such should not be forced upon the public, but can be offered if asked and in the proper context.

[Minimalist]

When churches engage in the "a spoonful of soup and a spoonful of jesus" routine they are marketing.  Marketing expenses are tax deductible write-offs for businesses.  Churches are businesses...selling an imaginary product at that!  They should conform to the same rules as other businesses.

[NoFaith2Burn4]

I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?
"The Church" doesn't exist, there are too many of them, all separated on account of the petty tyrannies of long-dead leaders who refused to compromise with newer, differing views. With over 4,000 sectarian divisions within Christianity alone, that's not exactly a winning score for a faith system which purports to exist for only one god.

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?
I've been there, and seen it all. I've seen the oppressive older generations of Roman Catholics, and the newer, re-invented liberal spin on Catholicism. I've seen country churches crowded with residents who were there primarily to socialize and drink coffee, I've seen those who worshiped quietly, glum-faced and clad in shiny shoes, dour suits, frumpy dresses, while carrying their bibles in swank leather sheathes. They essentially prayed for Jesus to come and deliver them soon from the misery which they had created for themselves through their fearful, paranoid ideas. They are ugly, mean people, many lawyers and accountants among them. I've seen churches full of those who worship loudly, and with great joy, allowing their imaginations to run wild and make them high on the ideas which they were taught. Many of the people there are recovering drug addicts and often they are particularly scary, criminal losers. Most are dropouts with low education. Then there are the serious evangelicals, where it would be hard to fit in if you aren't either planning an overseas proselytizing mission or supporting one. I remember one which a high school friend was involved in, the majority population there were young and spoiled brats, the offspring of other missionaries who managed to enrich themselves through their "charity" business. They tend to be reasonably intelligent, but so weirdly obsessed on their faith ideas - it's enough to scare off sensible people just as you may decide to avoid one who analyzed the hat which you happened to be wearing down to the last thread within 20 minutes after having met you. 

I stopped going to churches when I realized I could not play the dishonest game which kept the majority there from leaving. I had long suspected that most people who go there think no differently than I on the spuriousness of all claims to knowing any supernatural ideas as truthful, or knowing anything about the unknowable supernatural and its demands on mortal humans if it did exist. They stay because leaving is difficult - they knew they would be vilified for this by the ignorant assholes in their congregations, most of whom they never liked, but controlled what friends they had. They themselves had been taught to trust a rapist or a murderer more than anyone who doesn't believe what they do, however ridiculous it may be, therefore they stayed for fear that leaving would make them bad people. Due to the migratory nature of my parents' churchgoing patterns during my childhood, my personal ties weren't strong with any particular church, and the more I searched for any group worth spending my Sunday mornings with, the more comfortable I became with finding better ways to spend that time.

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?
There is no sufficient evidence by which one can rule on that question. On "Jesus Christ", nobody was ever born with that name. "Christ" is a title which a man named Joshua was endowed with more than a century after his death. Joshua was one of many Joshuas who lived among the Jews of his generation, and also one of many others who were leading the rebel-rabble of a population which was unhappy with Roman rule, and particularly infuriated by the violent outrages of Roman-appointed kings such as Herod. It does appear that at least one Joshua who was in that business made enough of an impression on his followers that they took his message abroad, even after he was gone. So, which rebel named Joshua was it who's rabble later traveled the world? Was it really only one among them? Pleeeeeezzze don't say it was Joshua of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem during the census which never actually took place - let's keep it historical! Anywho, the Greeks gave him their linguistic interpretation of the name Joshua, and from there on to Rome, where Joshua became Iesus. The "I" is because no "J" exists in Roman Latin. So the name "Jesus" didn't really exist until 1500 years later when the bible was transcribed into English.

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?
I don't need a purpose for my life - I live because life is good, and is preferable to the alternative. Sometimes I will re-orient my priorities for the benefit of other people, but this is always my choice - I don't dance on the end of anyone's strings, and I will not be any imagined entity's slave.

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

---

I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?
"The Church" doesn't exist, there are too many of them, all separated on account of the petty tyrannies of long-dead leaders who refused to compromise with newer, differing views. With over 4,000 sectarian divisions within Christianity alone, that's not exactly a winning score for a faith system which purports to exist for only one god.

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?
I've been there, and seen it all. I've seen the oppressive older generations of Roman Catholics, and the newer, re-invented liberal spin on Catholicism. I've seen country churches crowded with residents who were there primarily to socialize and drink coffee, I've seen those who worshiped quietly, glum-faced and clad in shiny shoes, dour suits, frumpy dresses, while carrying their bibles in swank leather sheathes. They essentially prayed for Jesus to come and deliver them soon from the misery which they had created for themselves through their fearful, paranoid ideas. They are ugly, mean people, many lawyers and accountants among them. I've also seen churches full of those who worship loudly, and with great joy, allowing their imaginations to run wild and make them high on the ideas which they were taught. Many of the people there are recovering drug addicts and often they are particularly scary, criminal losers. Most are dropouts with low education. Then there are the serious evangelicals, where it would be hard to fit in if you aren't either planning an overseas proselytizing mission or supporting one. I remember one which a high school friend was involved in, the majority population there were young and spoiled brats, the offspring of other missionaries who managed to enrich themselves through their "charity" business. They tend to be reasonably intelligent, but so weirdly obsessed on their faith ideas - it's enough to scare off sensible people just as you may decide to avoid one who analyzed the hat which you happened to be wearing down to the last thread within 20 minutes after having met you. 

I stopped going to churches when I realized I could not play the dishonest game which kept the majority there from leaving. I had long suspected that most people who go there think no differently than I on the spuriousness of all claims to knowing any supernatural ideas as truthful, or knowing anything about the unknowable supernatural and its demands on mortal humans if it did exist. They stay because leaving is difficult - they knew they would be vilified for this by the ignorant assholes in their congregations, most of whom they never liked, but controlled what friends they had. They themselves had been taught to trust a rapist or a murderer more than anyone who doesn't believe what they do, however ridiculous it may be, therefore they stayed for fear that leaving would make them bad people. Due to the migratory nature of my parents' churchgoing patterns during my childhood, my personal ties weren't strong with any particular church, and the more I searched for any group worth spending my Sunday mornings with, the more comfortable I became with finding better ways to spend that time.

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?
There is no sufficient evidence by which one can rule on that question. On "Jesus Christ", nobody was ever born with that name. "Christ" is a title which a man named Joshua was endowed with more than a century after his death. Joshua was one of many Joshuas who lived among the Jews of his generation, and also one of many others who were leading the rebel-rabble of a population which was unhappy with Roman rule, and particularly infuriated by the violent outrages of Roman-appointed kings such as Herod. It does appear that at least one Joshua who was in that business made enough of an impression on his followers that they took his message abroad, even after he was gone. So, which rebel named Joshua was it who's rabble later traveled the world? Was it really only one among them? Pleeeeeezzze don't say it was Joshua of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem during the census which never actually took place - let's keep it historical! Anywho, the Greeks gave him their linguistic interpretation of the name Joshua, and from there on to Rome, where Joshua became Iesus. The "I" is because no "J" exists in Roman Latin. So the name "Jesus" didn't really exist until 1500 years later when the bible was transcribed into English.

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?
I don't need a purpose for my life - I live because life is good, and is preferable to the alternative. Sometimes I will re-orient my priorities for the benefit of other people, but this is always my choice - I don't dance on the end of anyone's strings, and I will not be any imagined entity's slave.

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

[Redbeard The Pink]

Pink, keep in mind adding churches to the 501c3 exemption status was put in place by LBJ in 1954 to limit the churches influence in social policy.  It's essentially the governments way of paying the church to stay quiet.  For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church.  However, despite that I 100% agree with you on what should be required of a tax exempt organization.

If that's really what the government is paying the church for, they're not getting their money's worth because the church doesn't stay quiet. Instead they do everything they can to influence policy in any way they can, up to and including making organized public stands against government decisions.

[Jenny A]

Pink, keep in mind adding churches to the 501c3 exemption status was put in place by LBJ in 1954 to limit the churches influence in social policy.  It's essentially the governments way of paying the church to stay quiet.  For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church.  However, despite that I 100% agree with you on what should be required of a tax exempt organization.

Yep, I got that history lesson.  But I also got the follow up lesson in testing theories.  Guess what? It doesn't really keep the churches out of politics or keep them quiet.  It just keeps them quiet about particular candidates.  So?  Tax em, unless they qualify as a charity.

[Randy Carson]

I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

Is the problem in the Church, Jiffy?

Columnist Jeffrey Kuhner at the Washington Times wrote:

"For the past 50 years, every major institution has been captured by the radical secular left. The media, Hollywood, TV, universities, public schools, theater, the arts, literature — they relentlessly promote the false gods of sexual hedonism and radical individualism. Conservatives have ceded the culture to the enemy. Tens of millions of unborn babies have been slaughtered; illegitimacy rates have soared; divorce has skyrocketed; pornography is rampant; drug use has exploded; sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS have killed millions; birth control is a way of life; sex outside of wedlock has become the norm; countless children have been permanently damaged — their innocence lost forever — because of the proliferation of broken homes; and sodomy and homosexuality are celebrated openly. America has become the new Babylon." (as quoted here)

The article points to the rise of a new Arianism...let me know what you think.

[Fake Messiah]

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

Generaly Xtians are really closed in their world. Not only do they refuse to know scientific facts, any critical thinking of their beliefs but also most of them never even opened the Bible and read to see for themselves how stupid it is. Seriously, over the years I've been arguing with Xtians on forums and real world and when I mention some of the many stupid passages from the Bible they're always surprised, accuse me of making it up or not reading it properly.
Therefore there is also a problem of confusing many young minds with anti scientific nonsense that makes them harder to deal with science and therefore aggravate the human progress. And how are we supposed to have functioning democratic society in which people are not allowed to think but manipulate by some religious ruler?

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?

He was just some weirdo that preached end of the world is coming that even his mother wanted to put him in the loony bin. When he died he died, but people decided to make up stories about him like they did with Abe Lincoln.

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

To better this world and not to live for some other world. When I see Star Trek I see what humans are supposed to be: living on higher level of existence where their purpose of life is not to gather food and shelter anymore but they marvel at new scientific discoveries and pictures of new planets they discover. This is the path that we should take. I mean come on how much more fun life would it be to be terraforming Venus and populating it with plants and animals then going to some boring job every morning and only if you're lucky and also looking at pictures sent by drones in another star systems.

[abaris]

Columnist Jeffrey Kuhner at the Washington Times wrote:

"For the past 50 years, every major institution has been captured by the radical secular left.

Congratulations! With that quotemining expedition, you have climbed the Mount Everest of stupid. I mean, that guy actually has, but in presenting this brainfart, you more or less take posession. So you're at least Tenzing assisting Hilary in climbing the mount stupid.

Ha, Ha, Ha! Americas institutions have been taken over by the radical secular left! That's rich. You really should take the stage with that one.

Just for you, I break my rule of never using that smiley.

[NoFaith2Burn4]

I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

Is the problem in the Church, Jiffy?

Columnist Jeffrey Kuhner at the Washington Times wrote:

"For the past 50 years, every major institution has been captured by the radical secular left. The media, Hollywood, TV, universities, public schools, theater, the arts, literature — they relentlessly promote the false gods of sexual hedonism and radical individualism. Conservatives have ceded the culture to the enemy. Tens of millions of unborn babies have been slaughtered; illegitimacy rates have soared; divorce has skyrocketed; pornography is rampant; drug use has exploded; sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS have killed millions; birth control is a way of life; sex outside of wedlock has become the norm; countless children have been permanently damaged — their innocence lost forever — because of the proliferation of broken homes; and sodomy and homosexuality are celebrated openly. America has become the new Babylon." (as quoted here)

The article points to the rise of a new Arianism...let me know what you think.

LOFL, you Godwinite shithead - racism is for Xtians, and Hitler was a good Catholic.

Racism is extremely rare among secularists, for similar reasons which made them rational enough to be secular and non-ideological. Racism is common among white Christians, and here are likely reasons for that:
1. Angels are always white.
2. Any mention of "Black Arts", "Dark Magic", "Black Magic", "Dark Angel", "Angel of Darkness", or "Prince of Darkness" necessarily reinforces existing bigotry when heard among white congregants. Because, white angels represent good, and black angels represent...darkness! It's like the old movies, where the good guys wore white, and the bad wore black hats.

[Randy Carson]

Columnist Jeffrey Kuhner at the Washington Times wrote:

"For the past 50 years, every major institution has been captured by the radical secular left.

Congratulations! With that quotemining expedition, you have climbed the Mount Everest of stupid. I mean, that guy actually has, but in presenting this brainfart, you more or less take posession. So you're at least Tenzing assisting Hilary in climbing the mount stupid.

Ha, Ha, Ha! Americas institutions have been taken over by the radical secular left! That's rich. You really should take the stage with that one.          

Just for you, I break my rule of never using that smiley.

Does it ever occur to you that you are actually one of the least intellectually gifted members of this forum?

It should.