Tell me...

[loganonekenobi]

yeah right.  Until secular nations came to be the people that weren't right in god's eye (he must be a cyclops) were killed by the people who believed they were right.
just in case you want data.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


True only a minority of Christians are vocal about their faith but they are enough to make a political difference in my life.  That's too vocal for me.

 To bad it's our right to speak on what we want and to vote the way we see fit, this is two things separation of church and state doesn't apply to. For your information I wasn't referring to physical eyes, I was referring to God watching over us and ect. I do not need your data and you should re-read what I said, in God's eye, not our own, gees you must love making up things for what I state, get real please.

GC

yes the data you are ignoring shows how the christians ,when in power, "help" others who are suffering from lack of their god.  No i think i read your post perfectly right. Once you understand this (my data) you will see why I at least will make sure that separation of church and state stays in our system and your doctrine stays out of my life.
[/quote]

[Godscreated]

 To bad it's our right to speak on what we want and to vote the way we see fit, this is two things separation of church and state doesn't apply to. For your information I wasn't referring to physical eyes, I was referring to God watching over us and ect. I do not need your data and you should re-read what I said, in God's eye, not our own, gees you must love making up things for what I state, get real please.

GC

yes the data you are ignoring shows how the christians ,when in power, "help" others who are suffering from lack of their god.  No i think i read your post perfectly right. Once you understand this (my data) you will see why I at least will make sure that separation of church and state stays in our system and your doctrine stays out of my life.

 I'm not interested in you following my doctrine, I'm interested in you finding salvation through Christ, but then that will be your decision.

GC

[loganonekenobi]

yes the data you are ignoring shows how the christians ,when in power, "help" others who are suffering from lack of their god.  No i think i read your post perfectly right. Once you understand this (my data) you will see why I at least will make sure that separation of church and state stays in our system and your doctrine stays out of my life.

 I'm not interested in you following my doctrine, I'm interested in you finding salvation through Christ, but then that will be your decision.

GC

Calling bullshit on that one. If I "found" salvation in Christ then I would have to follow "your" doctrine. Also, as history has shown, if the christians have political power then my "decision" would be follow the way of Christ or die. Much like what your god says "believe or die".

[Godscreated]

 I'm not interested in you following my doctrine, I'm interested in you finding salvation through Christ, but then that will be your decision.

GC

Calling bullshit on that one.  If I "found" salvation in Christ then I would have to follow "your" doctrine.  Also, as history has shown,  if the christians have political power then my "decision" would be follow the way of Christ or die.  Much like what your god says "believe or die".

 Most of my doctrine comes through the Baptist church, some of this may not be totally true and some I've developed myself through the study of scripture which could also be wrong, accepting Christ as your savior and following His teachings the best you can is what I was trying to say. As far as "do or die," is some crazy delusion you've dreamed up. Why? IMO you want to remove yourself from the loving grace of God by trying to run down a gift that can't be had except from God through Christ.

GC

[vorlon13]

Your admitting to inventing doctrine from SB dross ?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Calling bullshit on that one.  If I "found" salvation in Christ then I would have to follow "your" doctrine.  Also, as history has shown,  if the christians have political power then my "decision" would be follow the way of Christ or die.  Much like what your god says "believe or die".

 Most of my doctrine comes through the Baptist church, some of this may not be totally true and some I've developed myself through the study of scripture which could also be wrong, accepting Christ as your savior and following His teachings the best you can is what I was trying to say. As far as "do or die," is some crazy delusion you've dreamed up. Why? IMO you want to remove yourself from the loving grace of God by trying to run down a gift that can't be had except from God through Christ.

GC

Yeah, see, the thing is I grew up Southern Baptist. My mother just retired as a professor and department head at a Southern Baptist university. I know well the number of bizarre doctrines that are imposed by the Baptists' literalist mindset. 

It's not a "free gift" if there's a gun in the giver's other hand (hell). You can try to paint over the black mold on the walls all you like, but it's still there. God made hell. God made people. God says "obey me or I will send you to that place of torture that I made". That's the gun. It makes salvation through belief/worship not a free gift, but a ransom demand from a gun-holding psychopath.

[Godscreated]

Yeah, see, the thing is I grew up Southern Baptist. My mother just retired as a professor and department head at a Southern Baptist university. I know well the number of bizarre doctrines that are imposed by the Baptists' literalist mindset. 

It's not a "free gift" if there's a gun in the giver's other hand (hell). You can try to paint over the black mold on the walls all you like, but it's still there. God made hell. God made people. God says "obey me or I will send you to that place of torture that I made". That's the gun. It makes salvation through belief/worship not a free gift, but a ransom demand from a gun-holding psychopath.

Bizarre doctrine, such as ? 

God did not bring corruption into man's life man did. Hell was first made for Lucifer and the other fallen angels, if man had not through his own self brought corruption into his life through selfish disobedience then hell would not have been a part of man's future, so hell isn't used as a gun as you call it, it is the place where all men would be without Christ. Christ is the way out of hell, He is our salvation. There is no if you do not believe in Christ God will put you into hell, hell's the default destination, so yes it is a free gift or maybe you might think of it as a ticket on a train bound for heaven.
I took you as one who was smart enough not to dive into such small excuses, yet you continue by calling hell a place of torture, these small bits are not going to get my attention other than a quick refutation of them. So, if you are going to try and use the Bible against itself please do not bring into conversations small childish arguments that most Biblical uneducated atheist do. Use what the Bible actually says. By the way my view on hell is not what the Southern Baptist profess, nor is it a watered down versions, it's actually even a worse place than a hell of never ending fire.

GC

PS I might not be able to respond to this until Monday, way to much going on here this weekend, so you can answer at your leisure if you decide to respond.

[Losty]

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Bizarre doctrine, such as ? 

God did not bring corruption into man's life man did. Hell was first made for Lucifer and the other fallen angels, if man had not through his own self brought corruption into his life through selfish disobedience then hell would not have been a part of man's future, so hell isn't used as a gun as you call it, it is the place where all men would be without Christ. Christ is the way out of hell, He is our salvation. There is no if you do not believe in Christ God will put you into hell, hell's the default destination, so yes it is a free gift or maybe you might think of it as a ticket on a train bound for heaven.
I took you as one who was smart enough not to dive into such small excuses, yet you continue by calling hell a place of torture, these small bits are not going to get my attention other than a quick refutation of them. So, if you are going to try and use the Bible against itself please do not bring into conversations small childish arguments that most Biblical uneducated atheist do. Use what the Bible actually says. By the way my view on hell is not what the Southern Baptist profess, nor is it a watered down versions, it's actually even a worse place than a hell of never ending fire.

GC

PS I might not be able to respond to this until Monday, way to much going on here this weekend, so you can answer at your leisure if you decide to respond.

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I feel like I've heard this before GC....
via Imgflip Meme Maker

[loganonekenobi]

Calling bullshit on that one.  If I "found" salvation in Christ then I would have to follow "your" doctrine.  Also, as history has shown,  if the christians have political power then my "decision" would be follow the way of Christ or die.  Much like what your god says "believe or die".

 Most of my doctrine comes through the Baptist church, some of this may not be totally true and some I've developed myself through the study of scripture which could also be wrong, accepting Christ as your savior and following His teachings the best you can is what I was trying to say. As far as "do or die," is some crazy delusion you've dreamed up. Why? IMO you want to remove yourself from the loving grace of God by trying to run down a gift that can't be had except from God through Christ.

GC

The historical data is very clear sir. When Christianity is in power people die if they don't follow Christ or if the people in power imagine that the guilty don't follow Christ "correctly".
also clearly since God made hell he put the choice to us "worship me or burn/die". On top of that this god confuses the issue by not giving clear evidence of any sort of afterlife to the living so now we must gamble.
there is no gift in this weather you want to see this religion for what it is historically or what the fairy tales in the book says.
If you had seen my introduction you would already know that i did try salvation in this Christ. It didn't work. There was no god no Christ, not to me anyway. If the Christians would get it through their thick heads into their closed minds that not every one HAS to be Christian then this world might be a better place. Give it a try. I know you wont. you cant.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

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Yeah, see, the thing is I grew up Southern Baptist. My mother just retired as a professor and department head at a Southern Baptist university. I know well the number of bizarre doctrines that are imposed by the Baptists' literalist mindset. 

It's not a "free gift" if there's a gun in the giver's other hand (hell). You can try to paint over the black mold on the walls all you like, but it's still there. God made hell. God made people. God says "obey me or I will send you to that place of torture that I made". That's the gun. It makes salvation through belief/worship not a free gift, but a ransom demand from a gun-holding psychopath.

---

Bizarre doctrine, such as ? 

God did not bring corruption into man's life man did. Hell was first made for Lucifer and the other fallen angels, if man had not through his own self brought corruption into his life through selfish disobedience then hell would not have been a part of man's future, so hell isn't used as a gun as you call it, it is the place where all men would be without Christ. Christ is the way out of hell, He is our salvation. There is no if you do not believe in Christ God will put you into hell, hell's the default destination, so yes it is a free gift or maybe you might think of it as a ticket on a train bound for heaven.
I took you as one who was smart enough not to dive into such small excuses, yet you continue by calling hell a place of torture, these small bits are not going to get my attention other than a quick refutation of them. So, if you are going to try and use the Bible against itself please do not bring into conversations small childish arguments that most Biblical uneducated atheist do. Use what the Bible actually says. By the way my view on hell is not what the Southern Baptist profess, nor is it a watered down versions, it's actually even a worse place than a hell of never ending fire.

GC

PS I might not be able to respond to this until Monday, way to much going on here this weekend, so you can answer at your leisure if you decide to respond.

Bizarre doctrines such as:
[*] a boat that could handle every animal on earth, which somehow arrived from Australia and the Americas, etc.
[*] all of humanity coming from two people made from clay and a rib (and then, later, eight people) with no genetic bottleneck.
[*] hell being a place that God sends people because he just has to, yet he's all-powerful, and created hell.
[*] the Baptist idea that Hell is just "separation from God", despite references to the lake of fire, that other place I guess, in Revelation.
[*] women cannot teach with authority.
[*]invisible battles and demons that control the thinking of people we don't agree with, who're trying to corrupt us.
[*] thinking for myself is the one thing that God apparently really doesn't want people doing, unless it agrees with doctrine.

(That last one's not exactly Biblical, but it was definitely implied or outright stated, with references to "the world", loosely from Paul's writings, and phrases like "man's knowledge", implying that those who come to conclusions outside of the Canon must be wrong... all the marks of cult thinking.)

And generally, hell is seen as a place of eternal torment. A synonym for torment is torture. So I don't see how that is small-minded, even if you use the most liberal definition of hell as "a permanent separation from God". If you're going to sit there and try to tell me that most Christians don't see hell as a place of torture, then you're full of shit, and I have no reason to believe another word you say. Trying to pretend that using the usual definition, instead of your particular favorite definition, makes me a "Biblical uneducated atheist", is just asinine. Regardless of how we define it, hell is a place where God "sends" people (or if you prefer, allows to be sent) in an afterlife that is not necessary to exist. Why not extinguish our souls upon death, as we already think happens, as atheists, and reward the Godly (those who guess which of the thousands of religious views is correct, of course) with eternal paradise? It's very clear to me that all of these things are stories humans made up, and not revelations from an eternal, ultimate Creator. They show all the signs of human psychological manipulation-- heaven and hell is, simply, what we'd refer to as "the carrot and the stick".

Any way you want to cut it, it breaks down as morally equivalent to a rapist: "I love you. Do you love me? See, I wrote you this love letter. Oh yeah it says a lot of really nasty stuff I did in the past, but that was the old me. The new me is all about love. Remember, I'm far more powerful than you, and I can do anything I want, but I want you to choose freely what you want to do, and all I want is for you to love me like I love you. All I ask in return is just to obey my every command, and you'll be rewarded beyond your wildest dreams... oh, and if you don't, I'll torture you."

That. Is. A. Rapist.

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