Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!

[Losty]

By all means, m'dear, I'm enjoying the show just the same. I like guessing how many posts til at aractus calls someone a cunt again.

[Aractus]

Not sure if that's what scholars in general really say, but I have to agree with Rocket here. You can't reasonably hold to the view that Jesus existed without making some inferences from the text.

Saying that Jesus exists isn't an inference. Working out what his theology was and what formed the core of his message is inference - and we can debate all day long about that.

Who? And how is James referencing it before it was invented and written down 35 years later (according to your point of view)?

Could have made it up, could be something he heard down the pub there are a vast number of possibilities I'm sure you could think of a few dozen if you put your mind to it.

If James made it up then his text is used partially as the basis for things Jesus says - that's even more problematic an explanation because then where does the remainder come from? How did they complete the Sermon on the Mount from the 16 or so things James said - and why didn't they include everything later attributed to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount?

You're the one who came up with the claim that Jesus didn't deliver the SotM or the other key teachings he is known for such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan. So who came up with them? Did they come up with them in 85 AD or before 49 AD?

[houseofcantor]

There was no historical Jesus. Paul's letter to the Romans told me so. Not like it matters, anyway.

By all means, m'dear, I'm enjoying the show just the same. I like guessing how many posts til at aractus calls someone a cunt again.

I'm totally disappointed that the Rocket didn't get it after telling Aractus to fuck off.

[pocaracas]

Guys, can anyone point me in the right direction or straight out tell me how we know that there were several apocalyptic preachers around the first century, in that particular middle-eastern region?

How can we say that the Teacher of Righteousness and Jesus were not the same historical person?

In the spring of 1950 Andre Dupont-Sommer, Professor of Semitic Languages and Civilizations at the Sorbonne, presented to the academic community a paper about the Moreh ha-Zedek which caused a sensation.

"Jesus," he claimed, "appears in many respects as an astonishing reincarnation of the Teacher of Righteousness. Like the latter, he preached penitence, poverty, humility, love of one's neighbor, chastity.... Like him, he was the Elect and the Messiah of God.... Like him, he was the object of the hostility of the priests.... Like him, he was condemned and put to death. Like him he pronounced judgment on Jerusalem, which was taken and destroyed by the Romans for having put him to death.... Like him, he founded a Church whose adherents fervently awaited his glorious return.... All these similarities -- and here I only touch upon the subject -- taken together constitute a very impressive whole."

It must be emphasized that Dupont-Sommer never suggested the Teacher of Righteousness was Jesus, but called him a prototype.

in
http://www.shareintl.org/archives/M_emer...eacher.htm

Impressive how one of the first scholars of the dead-sea scrolls came up with this comparison.

So... one can think that Jesus was:
1- Non-existent, but a re-imagining of the teacher.
2- Existent, a copy-cat of the teacher. (like Dupont-Sommer)
3- Independent from the teacher, but with curious coincidences.
4- The teacher was a made up figure, but Jesus was the incarnation of his ideals.
5- The son of God, while the teacher merely paved the road, but got no acknowledgment from the NT writers.
6- The son of God, while the teacher never existed beyond people's imaginations and writings.
etc...

What say you scholarly types? Aractus? Rocket?

[ApeNotKillApe]

There was no historical Jesus. Paul's letter to the Romans told me so. Not like it matters, anyway.

He probably existed, or perhaps better to say, there was a man who was an inspiration for the character, though whoever that man was has been totally obscured. 
I imagine that he was just some doomsday prophet, the Galilean equivalent of a crazy hobo who stands in the street wearing a "The End is Nigh" sandwich board.

[Aractus]

Guys, can anyone point me in the right direction or straight out tell me how we know that there were several apocalyptic preachers around the first century, in that particular middle-eastern region?

How can we say that the Teacher of Righteousness and Jesus were not the same historical person?

The "Teacher of Righteousness" is just some unknown person from the 1st century BC. Unknown as in we don't know his identity. Could he have influenced Jesus? Absolutely - we don't really know who influenced Jesus since nothing of value is told to us about Jesus before he begins his ministry. It is generally used to establish there was a culture of Messianic teachers at the time, which itself lends further credibility to the historic existence of Jesus. He couldn't have existed as a Messianic teacher in an age with no Messianic activity (well not unless he really was the Son of God anyway).

[houseofcantor]

There was no historical Jesus. Paul's letter to the Romans told me so. Not like it matters, anyway.

He probably existed, or perhaps better to say, there was a man who was an inspiration for the character, though whoever that man was has been totally obscured. 
I imagine that he was just some doomsday prophet, the Galilean equivalent of a crazy hobo who stands in the street wearing a "The End is Nigh" sandwich board.

Paul's construct was an idealized human crafted as a relatable embodiment of Holy Spirit. "Crazy hobo guy" failed the messiah test. It's pretty obvious that the Jesus of Christianity is the first. 

[robvalue]

I just asked Jesus if he existed, he said no. Finally a primary source.

[ApeNotKillApe]

What I love about the whole thing is how utterly insignificant the life accomplishments of Jesus actually are. Even if he actually performed all the miracles that he's credited with leading up to his death, his only real achievement is being martyred.

[robvalue]

Not really an achievement either. Anyone could just keep pissing off the Romans until they got fed up and executed them.