Review so far of the Romans study

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

We don't all burn in Hell for sin. None are without sin, meaning the our population of Heaven will be all Sinners. The people who will be sent to Hell are unrepentant in their sin. That's an important distinction. The population of Heaven and hell will have people who have commited the act same acts all their lives. The only difference the population of Hell turned from God and the atonement He offers.

Maybe read Genesis 1..God did not create an Evil world nor did he put man into one. We welcomed it with open arms. What was done in the garden is repeated in each and every one of our lives. Meaning we (according to Paul/Romans 1-2) select Evil or decide to repent of our sin

I bolded a portion of jenny's post for emphasis, because in my mind, it's a million dollar question...because therein lies the ruse, the shakedown and the straight-up con that theists desperately attempt to gloss over or avoid altogether: The Biblical God made mankind sick, by willfully cursing all of humanity with a sinful nature. A sinful nature so pervasive and foul, that not even a newborn infant can escape its filthy stench. 

The God character didn't have to do this. He wanted to and He chose to. God created the the mechanism for humans to have the capacity, tendency, drive, desire, and inherent longing to do dirty, dirty things. And then provides a way for us to be and clean. Wasn't that swell of Him? How fucking magnanimous of Him, to allow to us to participate in what can only be defined as a protection racket.

---

The Biblical concept of sin is so ridiculously stupid, that it's obviously made-up, as far as I'm concerned. If it were somehow proven to be true, is there any reason to wonder why non-believers wouldn't be lining up to worship a mob boss?

In the Bible sin is simply the act of disobedience regardless of what you have been told to do.  If the God character tells you to kill everything in a town and burn it all to the ground you will sin if you don't do exactly as you have been told to do.  Any deviation is sinful.  If a guy doesn't marry his widowed sister-in-law it's a sin.  It's all about obedience without exception.

[loganonekenobi]

If I'm understanding this correctly you want to teach this verse so as to clarify levels of sin/evil don't really matter to Yaweh.

Also to clarify you think that atheist "hate" Christianity because we don't understand it.....

okay so as to the former i would be mortified with someone who thinks that homosexulity and rebellious children are on the same level as rapists and murderers. Even in this case every one is on the same level as the rapist/murderer. That's disgusting and not a really good selling point for Yaweh.

As for the latter... you do know in America most of us where forced to"understand" the word of Yaweh. There are billboards and signs EVERYWHERE there is any sign of civilization about Jesus. If we don't understand then Nobody is understanding it. Its Wednesday so there are literally millions of bible studies going on and each one would say something different about the same verse.

So that leaves only how we (or at least me) see this message in the bible.
Either you see it as a redemption and salvation story or
you see it as abuse.
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/20...-just.html

Guess which way I see that as and it ain't due to a "misunderstanding".

Now that is why I don't do Christianity. If you choose to that's fine. In America that is okay.

As far as "hate" for Christians goes let me ask you (the teacher in this case) why there would be such "hate" for Christians? Do you think that maybe. a few things have been done in the name of Jesus that might cause this reaction? Look carefully at Christian history.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Look well to the modern examples of the faith and remember it is an unfortunate fact that it is easier to remember the bad things than the good things.

http://listverse.com/2010/02/23/10-peopl...-bad-name/

then there are the personal stories

http://micahjmurray.com/why-we-left-the-church/

I believe there is a verse in the new testements that says to fix your self before trying to fix others
Matthew 7:3

If for a moment the Christian would quite trying to convert everyone then maybe this negative reaction would not occur but wait Yaweh says that the world will hate you. John 15:18: so in a nut shell the Christian wants it that way.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

If you aren't suffering then God doesn't love you. The more misfortune you experience the more God loves you. It says so in the Bible.

There's a guy in the Bible with the worse case of hemorrhoids ever. God didn't love him.

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='1111088' dateline='1447275255']

No. I'm saying that wanting more in of itself is not a bad thing. I'm saying if one did not want more their would be no choice/sin in the world. Again youre the one who thinks sin is the end of the world, that sin is something God can not get past. He 'got Past sin a very long time ago, only leaving us with the Choice of eternity, and which side to stand on it. With Him or apart from Him.

Again all of this is about choice. He sent His son to die so that we may be able to be in sin and still choose to be with Him or to embrace our sin and let evil consume us.

well sin might not be 'the end of the world' but according to christian theory sin can land a person.

Actually no. Unrepented sin will lead to hell. Again back to romans 2 we all sin/those in the church included in that number.

in eternal damnation and torture in hell for eternity

actually The bible does not say we are sent to Hell for eternal punishment. We are sent to Hell to die/be consumed by it. to be destroyed. Only satan burns forever. He is not the god of Hell he is being punished/tormented by it.

that indicates to me something that bible god 'cannot get past' , we are all just being the humans that we naturally are that god created us to be so if its anyones fault its bible gods fault that everyone is sinning .

which can be rectified by atonement. So that means who ever is sent to hell chooses to go there than to repent of their sin.

but you have yet to show that any of this is even true and not just one big fairy tale so i have no idea why im even arguing about something yet to be shown to be true in the first place .

What do you think we've been doing for 2 weeks?

If you want 'proof' just ask to see it and keep asking till you do. That's what I did.

[Drich]

Jesus was 'destroyed' so we wouldn't have to be. God the Father is the same. and requires the same destruction of sin/sinner, now as he did then. However Jesus/God was destroyed in our place so no further destruction was or ever will be needed. So what does Jesus want in return? To those who believe end the destruction. God the Father's 'destruction' will be unleashed not in this life but the next.

jesus didnt preach destruction jesus preached love and turning the other cheek to enemies the opposite of the ot god . if the made up god in your made up book was real why should anyone worship this god if he is all about destruction and unfairness such as punishing innocent people for the crimes of a few of them like he does endlessly in the ot ?

I did not say He preached destruction. i said he was Destroyed. i was referencing Isiah 53
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

[Drich]

If I'm understanding this correctly you want to teach this verse so as to clarify levels of sin/evil don't really matter to Yaweh.

No.
I am point out the difference between sin and evil
Sin is not 'ok' but it is forgivable. God knows we all sin therefore our worthiness/Righteousness is not based on sin/our abilty to stop sinning. which means God does not look at sin under the lens of shame that we/you do.

Sin or rather the redemption of it is choice. God know we are all slaves to sin, bound to it so long as we live. As a slave to sin we can choose to serve it which then becomes Evil or we can choose to rebel/hate sin and seek atonement. This 'choice' is all God wants from us. To hate our sin and seek atonement/forgiveness for it.

Our other option is to turn into and embrace our sin, this act is identified as Evil before God and God more or less turns us over (gives up) on those who want to serve their sins.

Also to clarify you think that atheist "hate" Christianity because we don't understand it.....

No, you all do not understand it, yet you hate it which is bigotry. My challenge is not for you to stop hating, but to understand what you hate.

okay so as to the former i would be mortified with someone who thinks that homosexuality and rebellious children are on the same level as rapists and murderers.

For sin to be sin one must know he is indeed sinning. Children don't generally fall into that catagory. as for the other two the reason you fell that way is because you base your 'morality' on physical harm to other 'people.' Which is dangerous. The citizens of 1930's germany as well as 19th century America did the same. All that was needed for genocide in both cases was to change the defination of 'people' to only include people who were of a certain back ground and had certain philosphy and or religious views. Which to be honest we now are not too far from that very thing.. Ask yourself how many more building have to come down, or how many cities have to have a dirty bomb go off in them and rendered uninhabitable before certain other ideologies are completely bann and the people who practice them arrested or killed? We are already 1/2 way there on this, because we are doing this very thing in the countries where these types of ideologies are practiced as a measure of defense, but how far before that line get blurred and we go proactive in their home countries and our own?

Again no God, means no absolutes. No absolutes=steady moral decline.

Even in this case every one is on the same level as the rapist/murderer.  That's disgusting and not a really good selling point for Yaweh.

No. all who do not repent are all on the same level no matter what they did, verses those who do, no matter what they did. I honestly think the old way of looking at sin was never valid. Sin is not a measure of morality, since Christ died on the cross.. Repented Sin is like an infection or Zombie virus. Like on the walking Dead, everyone is a carrier for the base virus (repented sin) can't help that. No matter who you are or what you do, you are a Sin virus carrier. So if you are alive you are repentant of your sin/hate the virus and have been inoculated so the virus does not gestate/grow.

Now on TWD their is a stark contrast between simple carriers of the 'Sin/Zombie' virus and the full on walkers/Zombies. Walkers are Evil people. People who have been over taken/given over to sin. People who refuse the innoculation that stunts the growth of the virus. they in thier fully infected form, have the power to over take others and consume anyone struggling with just staying alive with their sin.

Again, being a full on walker/zombie, it does not matter what you did in life, who you were or, how 'moral' you were when viewed through the lens of pop culture. All that matters now is that you are actively infected and can 'turn' those around you. So what besides quarantine and or destruction (Hell) can the living do with you?

that said, should one who has the sin virus also look at someone else who has the sin virus with shame and disdain? Would God who Son died providing the inoculation for said virus also look at you or anyone with disdain or shame? No of course not. the only people God looks at with anger are those who want to turn who embrace their sin who poo poo on the sacrifice and effort made to provide us with the inoculation. those people god simply lets turn, and deals with with on the last day.

As for the latter... you do know in America most of us where forced to"understand" the word of Yaweh.

So, what.. you were just pretending to get the basics of biblical christianity wrong so you could hear my zombie analogy?

 There are billboards and signs EVERYWHERE there is any sign of civilization about Jesus.  If we don't understand then Nobody is understanding it.  

IDK I'm not a "rocket surgeon" but I think I got a pretty basic grasp on how this all works.

Its Wednesday so there are literally millions of bible studies going on and each one would say something different about the  same verse.

Because we all have different understandings. God (per the parable of the talents) Does not hold us all to the same standard/level of understanding. He holds us to what he has given us over to understand.
(He grades on a curb. Which was made possible by Christ)

So that leaves only how we (or at least me) see this message in the bible.
Either you see it as a redemption and salvation story or
you see it as abuse.
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/20...-just.html

If you see either then your not listening. Romans 1 and 2 describes the difference between sin and evil. We haven't got to any part of redemption yet.

Guess which way I see that as and it ain't due to a "misunderstanding".

Now that is why I don't do Christianity.  If you choose to that's fine.  In America that is okay.

As far as "hate" for Christians goes let me ask you (the teacher in this case)  why there would be such "hate" for Christians?  

Because you see 'judgement' that we in romans 2 have been clearly told not to do because we are all in the same boat!

Do you think that maybe. a few things have been done in the name of Jesus that might cause this reaction?  Look carefully at Christian history.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

If a Psyco killed your wife and kids because you in passing said you needed a break to a close friend, but he over heard it and took it to mean he was able to exercise his evil wants and desires in your name, does that make you responsible? Or is the Psyco responsible for his own actions?

 Look well to the modern examples of the faith and remember it is an unfortunate fact that it is easier to remember the bad things than the good things.

http://listverse.com/2010/02/23/10-peopl...-bad-name/

then there are the personal stories

http://micahjmurray.com/why-we-left-the-church/

I believe there is a verse in the new testements that says to fix your self before trying to fix others
Matthew 7:3

If for a moment the Christian would quite trying to convert everyone then maybe this negative reaction would not occur but wait Yaweh says that the world will hate you.  John 15:18: so in a nut shell the Christian wants it that way.

The world does, I'm speaking to those in the world who may not be of the world. Who do not like hating people for the sake of getting their hate on.

[Minimalist]

jesus didnt preach destruction jesus preached love and turning the other cheek to enemies the opposite of the ot god . if the made up god in your made up book was real why should anyone worship this god if he is all about destruction and unfairness such as punishing innocent people for the crimes of a few of them like he does endlessly in the ot ?

I did not say He preached destruction. i said he was Destroyed. i was referencing Isiah 53
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

Again, stop telling jews how to be jews.  You have corrupted their horseshit into your own.

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_...rvant.html

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

Cutting through the distortions and mistranslations of this enigmatic text.

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy foretelling how the world will react when they witness Israel's salvation in the Messianic era. The verses are presented from the perspective of world leaders, who contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with their new realization of Israel's grandeur. After realizing how unfairly they treated the Jewish people, they will be shocked and speechless.

While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.

Yes.  The jews are suffering delusions of grandeur.  But you are suffering delusions of adequacy.

[loganonekenobi]

If I'm understanding this correctly you want to teach this verse so as to clarify levels of sin/evil don't really matter to Yaweh.

No.
I am point out the difference between sin and evil
Sin is not 'ok' but it is forgivable. God knows we all sin therefore our worthiness/Righteousness is not based on sin/our abilty to stop sinning. which means God does not look at sin under the lens of shame that we/you do.

Sin or rather the redemption of it is choice. God know we are all slaves to sin, bound to it so long as we live. As a slave to sin we can choose to serve it which then becomes Evil or we can choose to rebel/hate sin and seek atonement. This 'choice' is all God wants from us. To hate our sin and seek atonement/forgiveness for it.

Our other option is to turn into and embrace our sin, this act is identified as Evil before God and God more or less turns us over (gives up) on those who want to serve their sins.

Also to clarify you think that atheist "hate" Christianity because we don't understand it.....

No, you all do not understand it, yet you hate it which is bigotry. My challenge is not for you to stop hating, but to understand what you hate.

okay so as to the former i would be mortified with someone who thinks that homosexuality and rebellious children are on the same level as rapists and murderers.

For sin to be sin one must know he is indeed sinning. Children don't generally fall into that catagory. as for the other two the reason you fell that way is because you base your 'morality' on physical harm to other 'people.' Which is dangerous. The citizens of 1930's germany as well as 19th century America did the same. All that was needed for genocide in both cases was to change the defination of 'people' to only include people who were of a certain back ground and had certain philosphy and or religious views. Which to be honest we now are not too far from that very thing.. Ask yourself how many more building have to come down, or how many cities have to have a dirty bomb go off in them and rendered uninhabitable before certain other ideologies are completely bann and the people who practice them arrested or killed? We are already 1/2 way there on this, because we are doing this very thing in the countries where these types of ideologies are practiced as a measure of defense, but how far before that line get blurred and we go proactive in their home countries and our own?

Again no God, means no absolutes. No absolutes=steady moral decline.

Even in this case every one is on the same level as the rapist/murderer.  That's disgusting and not a really good selling point for Yaweh.

No. all who do not repent are all on the same level no matter what they did, verses those who do, no matter what they did. I honestly think the old way of looking at sin was never valid. Sin is not a measure of morality, since Christ died on the cross.. Repented Sin is like an infection or Zombie virus. Like on the walking Dead, everyone is a carrier for the base virus (repented sin) can't help that. No matter who you are or what you do, you are a Sin virus carrier. So if you are alive you are repentant of your sin/hate the virus and have been inoculated so the virus does not gestate/grow.

Now on TWD their is a stark contrast between simple carriers of the 'Sin/Zombie' virus and the full on walkers/Zombies. Walkers are Evil people. People who have been over taken/given over to sin. People who refuse the innoculation that stunts the growth of the virus. they in thier fully infected form, have the power to over take others and consume anyone struggling with just staying alive with their sin.

Again, being a full on walker/zombie, it does not matter what you did in life, who you were or, how 'moral' you were when viewed through the lens of pop culture. All that matters now is that you are actively infected and can 'turn' those around you. So what besides quarantine and or destruction (Hell) can the living do with you?

that said, should one who has the sin virus also look at someone else who has the sin virus with shame and disdain? Would God who Son died providing the inoculation for said virus also look at you or anyone with disdain or shame? No of course not. the only people God looks at with anger are those who want to turn who embrace their sin who poo poo on the sacrifice and effort made to provide us with the inoculation. those people god simply lets turn, and deals with with on the last day.

As for the latter... you do know in America most of us where forced to"understand" the word of Yaweh.

So, what.. you were just pretending to get the basics of biblical christianity wrong so you could hear my zombie analogy?

 There are billboards and signs EVERYWHERE there is any sign of civilization about Jesus.  If we don't understand then Nobody is understanding it.  

IDK I'm not a "rocket surgeon" but I think I got a pretty basic grasp on how this all works.

Its Wednesday so there are literally millions of bible studies going on and each one would say something different about the  same verse.

Because we all have different understandings. God (per the parable of the talents) Does not hold us all to the same standard/level of understanding. He holds us to what he has given us over to understand.
(He grades on a curb. Which was made possible by Christ)

So that leaves only how we (or at least me) see this message in the bible.
Either you see it as a redemption and salvation story or
you see it as abuse.
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/20...-just.html

If you see either then your not listening. Romans 1 and 2 describes the difference between sin and evil. We haven't got to any part of redemption yet.

Guess which way I see that as and it ain't due to a "misunderstanding".

Now that is why I don't do Christianity.  If you choose to that's fine.  In America that is okay.

As far as "hate" for Christians goes let me ask you (the teacher in this case)  why there would be such "hate" for Christians?  

Because you see 'judgement' that we in romans 2 have been clearly told not to do because we are all in the same boat!

Do you think that maybe. a few things have been done in the name of Jesus that might cause this reaction?  Look carefully at Christian history.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

If a Psyco killed your wife and kids because you in passing said you needed a break to a close friend, but he over heard it and took it to mean he was able to exercise his evil wants and desires in your name, does that make you responsible? Or is the Psyco responsible for his own actions?

 Look well to the modern examples of the faith and remember it is an unfortunate fact that it is easier to remember the bad things than the good things.

http://listverse.com/2010/02/23/10-peopl...-bad-name/

then there are the personal stories

http://micahjmurray.com/why-we-left-the-church/

I believe there is a verse in the new testements that says to fix your self before trying to fix others
Matthew 7:3

If for a moment the Christian would quite trying to convert everyone then maybe this negative reaction would not occur but wait Yaweh says that the world will hate you.  John 15:18: so in a nut shell the Christian wants it that way.

The world does, I'm speaking to those in the world who may not be of the world. Who do not like hating people for the sake of getting their hate on.

When I read this reply I can clearly see that you are ignoring the facts that i have laid out. You are making excuses for you faith (a sure sign of an abusive relationship). If you cant understand why some people might hate christianity or at least have a negative view of it then why should they try to understand christianity. From the atheist point of view we don't blame a god for the misbehavior of its followers (your pcycopath example). We go right to reality and blame the real people that did/do the things that cause many to turn away.
It is the arrogant, uncompromising, and intollerent nature of the christian that most often prompts the "hate" that you are trying to combat.
When i was young i was very much on board with repenting and loving Jesus. You know what turned me away? The horrible actions of my (at the time) fellow christians to others and to me. They had a god and still had little to no morals. (having this god does not always = having morals....again.)
Fix that log your eye first before trying to make me "understand" the speck of christianity in my eye.
I know you wont.

[jenny1972]

Again all of this is about choice. He sent His son to die so that we may be able to be in sin and still choose to be with Him or to embrace our sin and let evil consume us.

well sin might not be 'the end of the world' but according to christian theory sin can land a person.

Actually no. Unrepented sin will lead to hell. Again back to romans 2 we all sin/those in the church included in that number.

in eternal damnation and torture in hell for eternity

actually The bible does not say we are sent to Hell for eternal punishment. We are sent to Hell to die/be consumed by it. to be destroyed. Only satan burns forever. He is not the god of Hell he is being punished/tormented by it.

that indicates to me something that bible god 'cannot get past' , we are all just being the humans that we naturally are that god created us to be so if its anyones fault its bible gods fault that everyone is sinning .

which can be rectified by atonement. So that means who ever is sent to hell chooses to go there than to repent of their sin.

 but you have yet to show that any of this is even true and not just one big fairy tale so i have no idea why im even arguing about something yet to be shown to be true in the first place .

What do you think we've been doing for 2 weeks?

If you want 'proof' just ask to see it and keep asking till you do. That's what I did.

so is catholocism also incorrect are you talking about christianity before the catholic church ?  i think alll religious people should be learning about the history of their religion and be true to the doctrine . westboro baptist church hurray they are practicing their doctrine and i wish all religion were so honest . do you think all denominations are wrong or do you believe one christian denom in right ? where do you get that idea that christians do not believe humans go to hell for eternity christians absolutely DO !!!! lol humans live for eternity is what most christians believe or are you saying there are thousands of christians cults about wouldnt every christian denomination be considered a cult if the doctrine deviates from the original but a lot of people believe the catholics is the true original faith and they really are or at least the first organized church ? and also most christians believe in the inerrancy of the bible and believe its completely perfect and protected to even claim that 1% of the bible could possibly be mistranslated is heresy , do you believe the bible is divine since it has the Word in it and the Word has always existed and was always with bible god so is it apart of him some do think that do you think the Word which is in the bible is a divine thing apart of God ?

[robvalue]

Drich appears to follow Calvinism, as far as I can tell. Even among the head-exploding options that Christianity offers, I find this the most extreme and utterly depraved.