Review so far of the Romans study

[Anomalocaris]

That's the most lucid and intelligent thing you've posted in a long time. Keep it up!

what I wrote did not post the first time.

And you were therefore less poorly regarded because of it.

But true to form, you were too idiotic to leave a good thing alone.

[Drich]

what I wrote did not post the first time.

And you were therefore less poorly regarded because of it.

But true to form, you were too idiotic to leave a good thing alone.

says the  with the stupid new name

[Cyberman]

And no misspellings.

The mischievous part of me wants to picture Drich spelling a line of dots with dashes. I do apologise.

[loganonekenobi]

What is your purpose here?

You asked for bible versus. I gave you bible versus.
The only thing you did was interpret these the way you wanted. These can be interpreted in many ways both harmful and helpful and every one claims their version is the right one. This is the problem with a man made system that people believe comes from a god.

You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence. You gave none. You simply refuted with some mental gymnastics. Those people in the past died because some one read the bible and said "hmmm I don't like this/these people and now I have the excuse to kill them in the name of God." It happened period. In my own life time there are many people who would have done more than verbally,socially , or physically harm me had it not been for SECULAR law. NO not the one that says not to kill but the one that says freedom of religion (which neither the bible nor its adherence give and still give benevolence).

Here is what I Think you are saying.

"If a people would follow the bible correctly then they would be better people."

I like that idea. that would be great. However many religions or philosophical practices can be viewed this way. Many others have been used to give hope, strength, guidance, and purpose. I don't believe Christianity is special in this way. Nor do i feel that we need a belief in a god to have these things.

You say "It is not Gods fault for the actions of the people." I say I agree but as an atheist I cannot accuse God of anything. The IDEA of God, however, is so strong and so malleable that the past and present harms (that i have posted) were justified by the people that held these ideas.

I understand what you are saying
"all sins are equal...get right with God by believing in Jesus and trying not to sin....and just because some one claims to be Christian doesn't mean they are following the Christian way..." You are not the first to convey this message. In fact, as i have said, It's all over America.

Here is the problem you are meeting from the other side of the net.

A) There is no proof of a god to get right with. Without solid evidence I am not willing to submit to the nonsensical rules of any religion. The ones that do make sense I can (and do) follow.

B) To the critical eye religion looks very much like any other man made tool. Like any tool it can be used or abused. This I have clearly shown. There are over two thousand bible rules. Most of which are great if you are a struggling tribe of people in the desert from the bronze age.

C) when some one (in this case atheists) sees something wrong with the status quo (in this case religion) the status quo often fights back (in this case you).

If you put yourself in the mind of a skeptic you will see that this logic follows (A),(B), and ©. This means then that your sermon will have no effect. Miymoto Musashi said "do nothing that is useless" (book of five rings).

I do what I do because I have seen how religion (note i did not say JUST Christianity) can be used to separate and harm the human race "he who is not with me is against me". If my guess is correct then in your world view when every one (all 7 billion of us) believe the same religion (and interpret the same belief correctly) then and only then will we be united as a people and therefore religious harm will cease. This is probably true as logic goes. In reality this wont happen without the true presence of a god.

Produce this god instead of words that can be written by man, translated, edited, embellished, and interpreted. The skeptic eagerly awaits.

Note that i have changed tactics by attempting to understand the topic not just refuting every little point. I have explained my thinking on the subject while acknowledge what I see as yours.
. Can you do the same
Again i ask ...what is your purpose here?

what you post next will make a large difference to me. Do not be useless.

[Anomalocaris]

His purpose here is to pretend he is not stupid. He is throwing a continuous tantrum because we didn't invite him and don't want to humor him by play along with him.

[Anomalocaris]

And no misspellings.

The mischievous part of me wants to picture Drich spelling a line of dots with dashes. I do apologise.

His idea of morse code consist of just dots.

[Drich]

What is your purpose here?

You asked for bible versus. I gave you bible versus.

Actually no. I asked for scriptural support for the claim you made of Christian belief. You then inturn cherry picked and cobbled together verse scraps from all over the bible and cut and paste them together. This would be no different than someone cutting and pasting various words, even paragraphs out of a law book to claim validity of a law they themselves cobbled together.

Again I am looking for contextual documentation from the bible that supports what you believe about Christianity. Or I am looking for you to concede that your 'doctrinal' views are made up and do not reflect the outline of Christianity provided by the bible.

The only thing you did was interpret these the way you wanted.

Again no. The word interpret means to explain the meaning of. Something I do not have to do as the book I am reading from is written in English. and the Easy to read version, that I am quoting from pretty well explains it self. what I am doing is compiling an outline of the various chapters tying key points between them. Or referring back to the OT when Paul refers back to the OT, or when he quotes Jesus or another Apostle. I in no way have changed anything written in this Romans study. I am going line by line verse by verse. the vast majority of my commentary, simply points to the differences between what is written on page verse what is believed by the church/Christianity.

These can be interpreted in many ways both harmful and helpful and every one claims their version is the right one.

Not with a contextual reading. Meaning yes, if one approaches the bible as you did cutting and pasting verse scraps together, the bible can be made to say anything. However if you are forced to read contextually, the bible ceases to be a free for all, and puts everyone who will honestly read it contextually in the same place. think about it, what other book can you take lines out of from random stops, paste them all together, and pretend the book actually says what you've cobbled together? Then why would you think you could do this with the bible?

 This is the problem with a man made system that people believe comes from a god.

Indeed.. So why follow the man made system? why not simply read from the start of a chapter all the way through and apply what was written contextually? That would be God's intended system. which again is all that I am doing.

You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence.

ah, no. you cobbled together crap pretending it was a contextual representation of the bible.

You gave none.  You simply refuted with some mental gymnastics.

Says the dishonest person who pulled a dozen verse scraps from all over the bible and compiled into into one big mess, trying to pretend that your mess was what the bible intended with those randomly sourced verses...

No, what I did was forced a contextual reading. Once I put all those verses back into their original contexts, they in no way shape or form represented what the bible actually had to say on our given topic.

Those people in the past died because some one read the bible and said "hmmm I don't like this/these people and now I have the excuse to kill them in the name of God."  It happened period.

Ah, no. The bible was not the source of Christian world denomination. Papal authority was. That is the idea that the 'authority' of Jesus was given to "peter" and peter passed it down to the next guy and the next and the next, which is supossedly represented by the office of the pope.

Which means the sitting pope has the supposed power of Jesus Christ himself to make 'doctrine.' Thus invalidating anything the bible may say that contradicts the pope.
Why else do you think the bible was translated into a language that common people could not understand? (Latin) and forbidden to be spoken of in any language other than latin with the literal threat of being burned at the stake. (Which was enforced past the 17th century)

so again, no. The church's move on world denomination was not bible inspired. it was authorized contrary to what the bible actually says.

so again, if 'man' (even a man in a funny hat who thinks he has the power of Jesus) says do "X" and the bible says Don't do "X" then those who do "X" are not following the outline of Christianity provided by the bible. Meaning they are not following the Christianity Jesus Himself, along with his Apostles established. They are literally doing their own thing and calling it Christianity.

Again pointing back to our study in Romans. Jesus is the only one who has the power to award that title. It can not be bought or sold by a man wearing a funny hat. Meaning you/we can not earn it by following any church doctrine.

 In my own life time there are many people who would have done more than verbally,socially , or physically  harm me had it not been for SECULAR law.  NO not the one that says not to  kill but the one that says freedom of religion (which neither the bible nor its adherence give and still give benevolence).

Dude, I've literally been beaten daily 2 or 3 times aday by different groups of people for the color of my skin/mother's skin, I was even stabbed, suffered broken bones, and was given a concussion by being head slammed into the track at school (where I was left unconscious for a long period of time/long enough for my head/brow to completely swell so big it pushed my eye shut.) Not over something as trivial (something you can lie about) as what you believe or your sexuality. sometimes people cited the bible about 'mix breeds' other times it had to do with national sentiment concerning Asian people (as the last 3 wars the US fought were with Asian countries/an uncheck version of how people feel about muslims/terrorists now.) other times people did it just because they could. Never one on one, always in a group of three or more.

In all of that, never once in the hundreds of beating I must have taken did I ever blame religion or God. Because God never beat me, I always got to see the sheer evil/joy the people doing the beating got. I knew from a very early age that people did stuff like that because it pleased them to do it. whatever the reasons they did stuff like that was just an excuse for them to do what it was they wanted to do from their own heart. Evil people will always find away to excuse/make right the evil they want to do. The 'church/religion' is just a tool, one that can be easily substituted with anything else that affords them power. It is a small mind that thinks that it is only through 'god' or the church that evil men do what they want to do.

Here is what I Think you are saying.

"If a people would follow the bible correctly then they would be better people."

No...
If people would simply read their bible/Romans you would understand that ALL people are ALL Equally sinful, and no one is a 'good person.'

That we will never be good people, and to say otherwise, is simply comparing what is broken with what is more broken.

therefore God does not look at 'morality' to judge one righteous. that is why when you all point to how 'good' you think you are, I say you don't even understand the basics of biblical Christianity.

God does not 'rate' sin as you do. all are sinful, so The Father sent the Son to Take sin off the table. Now all that is left to judge is whether or not you want to Goto Heaven and Love/serve God for eternity. That is why I say those in Hell Choose Hell. They are there for no other reason. Because as Paul points out in Romans 2 the people going to Heaven go to Heaven by God's Grace alone, and for no other reason. That all in Heaven are guilty of the same exact sins of those in Hell. the only difference is those with God repent of their sins. Not because they are better people.

Which is why I do not understand what the big deal is when a josh dugger is caught scewing up. (Unless they are pharisaical in what they believe/One earns his way into heaven by tring to do more good than evil.)

I like that idea. that would be great.  However many religions or philosophical practices can be viewed this way. Many others have been used to give hope, strength, guidance, and purpose. I don't believe Christianity is special in this way. Nor do i feel that we need a belief in a god to have these things.

You say "It is not Gods fault for the actions of the people."  I say I agree but as an atheist I cannot accuse God of anything. The IDEA of God, however, is so strong and so malleable that the past and present harms (that i have posted) were justified by the people that held these ideas.

The 'idea of God' is absolute and unchanging. What changes is religion. Religion could not change very far off center if one would simply read the bible as it was written.

I understand what you are saying
"all sins are equal...get right with God by believing in Jesus and trying not to sin....and just because some one claims to be Christian doesn't mean they are following the Christian way..."  You are not the first to convey this message.  In fact, as i have said, It's all over America.

Here is the problem you are meeting from the other side of the net.

close enough. where we differ is the reasons why we do what we do.

A)  There is no proof of a god to get right with.

would God be proof of God?
If God sat down with you and worked with you on a one on one basis would that be 'proof' enough?
That is exactly what Jesus is offering in Luke 11 with the A/S/K parable.

If you do not have 'proof' it is because you have not followed the instructions provided by Christ.

 Without solid evidence I am not willing to submit to the nonsensical rules of any religion.  The ones that do make sense I can (and do) follow.

I said the same exact thing. The only difference I honestly Gave it a 100% effort on my end.
Then low and behold, God was there right where He said He would be.. I suspect He was there the whole time. It's just my heart was too hard to acknowledge Him.

B) To the critical eye religion looks very much like any other man made tool.  

Religion, Is Exactly that!
However what God offers us, is not religion. It is a personal relationship that circumvents all religious efforts. That is what this study in the book of romans is all about. It is to show that 'Christianity' is not a religion. Yes we are to gather together, but not as a way to reaching out to God but as a collective way to worship and say thanks for the daily walk/relationship we have.

Again this study in the book of romans quite literally strips the church of all power and puts God and the believer on a one on one basis. That is why I keep saying you all don't understand basic Christianity as the bible describes it.

all of you keep pointing to Religion and claiming that to be Christian you must do or follow a certain religion. when infact religion was the reason Christ died on the cross... To be rid of the institution/religion that was previously needed as a go between God and man. "We" Through the Holy Spirit and Christ now have the same access to God as any and all prophets of the OT. that is why we are ALL refered to as Saints by the Church fathers. They understood that if we have accepted the Holy Spirit then God literally becomes apart of us. If God Literally becomes apart of you, what need do we have of religion/Man's rules?

Again, that is why I've always said biblical Christianity is very different than religion of any Kind.

Like any tool it can be used or abused. This I have clearly shown. There are over two thousand bible rules.  Most of which are great if you are a  struggling tribe of people in the desert from the bronze age.

Not according to Paul and what we are studying in romans 8. In that He directly says we are free from the law/The Law no longer applies because we though Christ have died to the law as a means to our righteousness. The 'Law' is only purpose is to point to the sin in an unrepentant person's life/What will be used to judge the unrepentant.

C) when some one (in this case atheists) sees something wrong with the status quo (in this case religion)  the status quo often fights back (in this case you).

What I am fighting for is to open your mind. Not to defend religion. I myself am not a fan.

If you put yourself in the mind of a skeptic you will see that this logic follows (A),(B), and ©. This means then that your sermon will have no effect.  Miymoto Musashi said "do nothing that is useless" (book of five rings).

I lived the 1st 1/2 of my life as a skeptic, but an honest one. I tested God the way He told us to test him and Found what was promised. I am nothing special. This promise was made to all of us not just those who grew up 'Christian.'

I do what I do because I have seen how religion (note i did not say JUST Christianity) can be used to separate and harm the human race "he who is not with me is against me".

Which is true.. Now ask your self is 'religion' for or against God if the bible says do ABC, and religion says do 123.

 If my guess is correct then in your world view  when every one (all 7 billion of us) believe the same religion (and interpret the same belief correctly) then and only then will we be united as a people and therefore religious harm will cease.  This is probably true as logic goes.  In reality this wont happen without the true presence of a god.

That's the thing... Not all are called to worship the God of the bible. Only those who God has set or given access to His word.

Produce this god instead of words that can be written by man, translated, edited, embellished, and interpreted. The skeptic eagerly awaits.

If I or anyother man could 'produce God' then that 'god' would not be worthy of worship. Imagine a world leader like the PotUS. is he at any person's beckon call? Despite what you may think of Him personally, does the PotUS come running when someone wants to meet with him? or is their a set procedure to meet him/You meet him on his terms? Why would the being that holds an infinatly higher 'office' be able to be summoned to do tricks and parties at anyone's beckon call?

No, like the PotUS you need to be vetted and follow procedure. The first thing is to be Humble enough to follow directions for what He has promised in Luke 11. Next you need Christ to vouch for you/redeemed. then you are given a measure of the Spirit. If you are faithful to what you have, then you will be given more, and more...

Note that i have changed tactics by attempting to understand the topic not just refuting every little point.  I have explained my thinking on the subject while acknowledge what I see as  yours.
. Can you do the same
Again i ask ...what is your purpose here?

To bring clarity and answer questions about Biblical Christianity.
To point people in the direction of God if they truly want 'proof.'

what you post next will make a large difference to me.  Do not be useless.

[Drich]

Ok time for another recap:

romans
1 Paul Greets the church at Roman and points to the message in this letter (the Book of Romans) that this is the Gospel
He starts by identifying evil and provides a list. In short Evil is identified as a love for the sins on that list/Justification for said sins.

2 Paul starts out by Charging the Christians at the church of Rome to NOT Judge Evil men because he points out that the very members of said church practices these very same acts listed in romans 1. The difference only being that the members of the church were repentant of their sin. which separates and defines the terms Sin and Evil. sin being the transgressions of a humble and contrite/repentant heart, and Evil being the transgressions of a person who embrace their sin over God. Evil does not have anything to do with the depth of sin one is willing to take part in.

3 The take away from Romans 3 is that ALL Are guilty of sin, that even the most religious among us are still considered to be dirty sinners that need redemption. Which means that our religions, rights and practices do not save us. Chapter 3 put all in need of redemption even the religious 'christian' because again, the acts of religion are meaningless in of themselves. We find out here that Christ is the only one who can determine who is and is not saved. That Christ is the only Being who can rightfully issue the title "Christian." "We are not save by our works (works being our religious efforts) but by faith in Christ, so no man can boast (meaning no one can claim to be a 'true christian according to his religious beliefs.')  again that title can only be awarded by Christ a church has no right to issue or sell that title.

4 In chapter 4 Paul takes the principle described in Chapter 3 (that its not our works of worship that save us) and applies it to Abraham. Pointing out that From the beginning it was the faith God looked for and this example could even be found in the works and deeds of Abraham. In that before Abraham did Anything, God found him 'righteous' through his faith. The 'works' of abraham were just outward showing of the faith that he had inside.

5 In the first 1/2 of Chapter 5 Paul takes the lesson of Abraham and practically applies Justification through Faith to the potential believer. In that how Abraham was found righteous/Saved through Faith we too Are also found Righteous/Saved through christ. In the second half, Paul answers a question he believes his followers are having, in that How can the Sacrifice of one Person/Jesus could atone for the sins of the whole world. He answers by point out that through one man, sin entered the world, and it is through one man that sin will be atoned for the whole world/those who seek atonement.

6 beings the good stuff. Paul explains that for everyone who sins, the consequence is death. Then Paul explains that Jesus Dies for our sin, and if we are baptized into Christ then it means we are putting on Christ's death/Rather we are allowing Christ to die in our place. Meaning Death is not required of us anymore. Nor are we bound by the law any longer for our righteousness, because when Jesus died in our place we died to the law of sin. Now does this mean the law goes away? no, for all who are not save are still bound to the law for their righteousness, and according to what we have already learned no one can be found righteous according to the law. (He explains in greater detail in the first 1/4 of chapter 7 when he makes a parallel from marriage)

so then Paul asks if we are free from the Law of sin, shall we sin more? He answers no. why? because it is out of love and respect (like abraham) that we follow the wishes of God to the best of our ability. Not as a way to earn heaven but as a way to thank God for redeeming us.

7 1/4 Paul explains that we are bound to the law of sin before we are saved like a wife to a husband, but if the Husband dies then the wife is free to remarry. So she is no longer bound to the covenant of her first husband.

the rest of the chapter is earth shattering to those in religions who practice legalism. Meaning those who preach we must stick to the law to be righteous before God (Super moral Christians who think we must be holier than you to earn salvation, this includes all sorts of rules and punishments or methods of redemption for breaking the rules of religion) In chapter 7 Paul admits to being a hopeless sinner. that even at the height of his ministry and even being one of the founding members of the church Paul is out of control when it comes to his sins. That he knows he should do certain things, but he does not do them. Rather he does the things/sin he hates instead. then he cries out and ask how can God love someone like him, someone the world/christian pharisees would call a hypocrite? He points back to Jesus' atonement. Paul in the last 1/4 also separates us into 2 being who occupy the same body. We are the Soul/Spirit who can want to be sin free and love and honor God, and we are the Mind/body who is a literal slave to sin. Paul points out that while the mind/body wants and is bound to sin we (soul/Spirit) must seperate from the sin the mind/body is bound to. So when we die our mind body who is a slave to sin will stay gone, but our (soul/Spirit) are resurrected with Christ and given a new body that will be controlled by the soul spirit.

8 Paul spents a lot of time in Chapter 8 telling how 'we'/saved are to live, now that we are no longer bound by the Law. The short answer is to live in the Holy Spirit. Now most people do not understand what this means or even some religious types believe this to be a cop out, but when we are saved our measure of the Holy Spirit greatly increases and we do indeed get sharp direction and correction from God. While we are not bound by the laws of sin for righteousness/going to Heaven, we are still to try and live by the law. If we don't doesn't mean we loose our salvation, it means we will be left to suffer the consequence of our sin. (If you choose to sin you choose to suffer.)

The middle of the chapter explains that even though our suffering we can always know and look forward to our heavenly reward. He closes with the reassure us that no matter how bad things may get that no one can take our salvation. Meaning once Christ identifies you as 'Christian' Nothing in all of creation has the authority to take your 'saved' status from you.

[Minimalist]

Nice recap but you forgot the part where you provide evidence that there was any one person named "paul" and, even more to the point that even if there was that he was not some crazy old coot who hallucinated a god.

Let me know when you can handle the basics.

[dyresand]

So what have we learned from this forum post...
Not a damn thing