Muslims

[Catholic_Lady]

Yeah, keeps all the bad bits, cherry picks some good bits to look moderate.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. Certain things can be written in the context of its time (1400 years ago is a long time) and there may be allegory/symbolism in there. At least they can look at it that way. There needs to be some sort of establishment of Islamic scholars and high priests, etc, to study these texts in the Koran and come up with some sort of official document of their faith to more clearly explain all the laws/standards. I think a reform like that would help a lot with all these mofos interpreting the koran in a way that leads them to horrible things in the name of Islam. There needs to be some sort of official order.

[Catholic_Lady]

We can see MK here, our resident Muslim, and see that he is a perfectly good and moral person. If his interpretation/understanding of the Koran and of Islam was some sort of official Islamic law, documented in their doctrine, it would be completely fine. The Islam religion doesn't need to be obliterated. Just reformed.

[Catholic_Lady]

Again, I have to ask what is the long term plan for the refugees?  The debate is focused on whether or not to let them in at all, but I haven't heard much in the way of what the plan is once they're here.  Once the immediate humanitarian crisis is addressed, then what?

I must admit I don't have an answer for that. I don't know. All I know is that these people are fleeing for their lives and they need help. We have to help them. At least take them in first so they are out of the immediate danger, and then work together to figure out how best to handle it once their lives aren't in danger anymore.

[Catholic_Lady]

Here's the problem with islam, the way I see it - it has actual totalitarian control over large populations, which differentiates it from most other religions.

When xtianity had actual totalitarian control over large populations they were pretty much dicks, too.  Perhaps you remember?




Holy horseshitters are the same no matter what stupid hat they wear.

Why don't you think people can change though? That was centuries ago. The people involved are long dead, their children are long dead, their great great grandchildren are long dead, etc. I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible, heinous thing, neither am I saying there was any excuse for it. But I don't see the point in blaming the Christian people of today for how other Christians were during a certain age centuries ago. People have changed, times have changed, and we have evolved and learned from our mistakes. Islam can change too, and if/when they do, we shouldn't be blaming the future generation of people for the horrible things their great great great great ancestors did.

[Minimalist]

There needs to be some sort of establishment of Islamic scholars and high priests, etc, to study these texts in the Koran and come up with some sort of official document of their faith to more clearly explain all the laws/standards.

Islam follows more closely the protestant scheme of things wherein each imam sets out to win as much market share as he can by shouting louder than the other guy.  The schism between Sunni and Shia started because they couldn't agree who the new caliph should be....back in the 7th century.  As the Theory of Evolution predicts the two groups have now diverged along various doctrinal lines in addition to the original political dispute.  They seem fine with blowing each other to bits over it.

They have no pope or central authority.  Think of it as an Avignon situation which never got resolved.

[Catholic_Lady]

There needs to be some sort of establishment of Islamic scholars and high priests, etc, to study these texts in the Koran and come up with some sort of official document of their faith to more clearly explain all the laws/standards.

Islam follows more closely the protestant scheme of things wherein each imam sets out to win as much market share as he can by shouting louder than the other guy.  The schism between Sunni and Shia started because they couldn't agree who the new caliph should be....back in the 7th century.  As the Theory of Evolution predicts the two groups have now diverged along various doctrinal lines in addition to the original political dispute.  They seem fine with blowing each other to bits over it.

They have no pope or central authority.  Think of it as an Avignon situation which never got resolved.

Yes, exactly. That needs to change. When each individual starts interpreting the Koran as he or she sees fit, there is no order or standard. Islam needs that very much, especially considering the violent nature of the Koran. They need a hierarchy and a "pope" and official doctrine so that they can't just do whatever they want and say they are following Islam.

[Minimalist]

Yes, exactly. That needs to change.

What do you have in mind?


Before you answer, remember the Wars of the Reformation and what that did to Europe.

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, exactly. That needs to change.

What do you have in mind?


Before you answer, remember the Wars of the Reformation and what that did to Europe.

Like I said up top: They need a hierarchy and a "pope" and official doctrine so that they can't just do whatever they want and say they are following Islam.

What about you? What do you have in mind for how Muslims should address this issue? 

[Minimalist]

What I meant was, how are you going to make them accept that idea?  What are your ideas?

As for me.  There is a two-step process here:

First, the West needs to wean itself off oil so that it no longer matters what these primitive shits do, and

Second, they need to have it out among themselves without our interference, just as catholics and protestants did in the 16-17th centuries.  They need to slaughter each other in great numbers with mind-numbing atrocities until they, too, realize that killing and being killed for an invisible sky-daddy is just fucking stupid. 

The 30 Years War ended in 1648 and Europe recoiled in horror which led to the Enlightenment and that was the beginning of the end of religion in Europe.  Today it is a vestigal presence and jesusists no longer massacre entire populations over such burning questions as Transubstantiation.  I regard this as an improvement.  But I have no idea how much blood will need to be shed before muslims come to regard the issue as not worth fighting over.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well-said.