Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic

[God of Mr. Hanky]

OK, so the person performing the operation gets punished with a fine or losing their license. That's a practical possibility.

Does the woman seeking the abortion get off scot free? If she gets a back street abortion, should there be consequences for her?

Probably only the doctor or person who actually does it. I imagine she'd be in a very vulnerable position and having gone through enough already.

So at least I know you try to think reasonably. That's nice, but if that avatar photo is actually you, then you may not have been in this world long enough to predict just how mean-spirited and unreasonable the law will become when forged over a political fire. This is one of the reasons why controversial questions of morality should never, ever be decided by any government.

[Catholic_Lady]

Probably only the doctor or person who actually does it. I imagine she'd be in a very vulnerable position and having gone through enough already.

So at least I know you try to think reasonably. That's nice, but if that avatar photo is actually you, then you may not have been in this world long enough to predict just how mean-spirited and unreasonable the law will become when forged over a political fire. This is one of the reasons why controversial questions of morality should never, ever be decided by any government.

Let's play a game. Guess my age.  

ps- I sent you a pm!

[Mudhammam]

Your way of dealing with religious people has failed the test enough times already - they are the mortal enemy of all that is worth living for on this earth, and then our very hope of survival into the future because they believe the world does not and should not have one. If you want to try and play nice with people who think like that, then I will not stand idly by and watch you hand my future over to these theocratic fatalists. Go bugger yourself with that if you so enjoy it, but your time of speaking for sensible atheists who actually understand what's at  stake ends now.

It looks like we have a modern-day Moses on our hands.

Please do let us know when you come back down from on high with the tablets that instruct us - I mean all atheists - on what we should do next about our future amidst these mortal enemies of ours.

[Catholic_Lady]

OK, thanks.

If killing a zygote/fetus/whatever is as bad as killing a standard human, why is the doctor not being done for murder? And why isn't the woman being done for being complicit in a murder?

Dyr: Totally, the bible clearly supports abortion.

Because I don't think abortionists are bad people like murders are. I think it's just as bad of an act, but a person's culpability is lessened if they don't fully see a human fetus as a human being and don't believe/understand that they are killing a person.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

So at least I know you try to think reasonably. That's nice, but if that avatar photo is actually you, then you may not have been in this world long enough to predict just how mean-spirited and unreasonable the law will become when forged over a political fire. This is one of the reasons why controversial questions of morality should never, ever be decided by any government.

Let's play a game. Guess my age.  

ps- I sent you a pm!

Not interested in games - if that's you're current photo, then you are much too young for me anyway. You also flirt like a teenager. Not that age matters any when it comes to the judgment errors which happen less with maturity. For example, there's expecting a government, made up of people who are ruthlessly ambitious enough to win the offices which they ran for to really give two s***s about passing laws which are in any way just or reasonable. Justice and reason aren't their games, scoring points with their key voters is what it's all about for them.

[Catholic_Lady]

Let's play a game. Guess my age.  

ps- I sent you a pm!

Not interested in games - if that's you're current photo, then you are much too young for me anyway. You also flirt like a teenager. Not that age matters any when it comes to the judgment errors which happen less with maturity. For example, there's expecting a government, made up of people who are ruthlessly ambitious enough to win the offices which they ran for to really give two s***s about passing laws which are in any way just or reasonable.

Will you be my sugar daddy?

[Joods]

What about you, Aroura? We never talk anymore since I stopped having time for mafia. How would you answer all these questions?

I do not think all individual life is inherently sacred, so I would have helped the woman with the stray cat. Unwanted kittens are most likely just going to be killed later in a shelter, which I suppose you know if you work with strays. I find people who refuse to fix their pets abhorent, but I am getting off topic...lol.

I used to think there was nothing at all wrong with killing animals for food. I grew up on a farm, after all, and I helped kill a few turkeys and chickens, even.

But as I have gotten older, my views have changed a bit. I still take no issue with the morality of meat eating in and of itself, but the lives of most food animals are horrid, the cost to our ecosystem is worse, and to individual human health it is also harmful.

I now eat meat rarely. Only free range chicken (I bought a locally raised Turkey on thanksgiving). I used to also eat wild caught fish. Then I discovered what overfishing is doing to the world, and I have stoppe eated eating fish as well. I admit I indulge in occasional processed meats...but acctually now that I think about it, we have not bought anything except chicken or turkey for months. Anyway, meat eating is fine in limited amounts, as long as the animals have a decent life, imo.

So yeah, the way I view life and suffering and moral behavior has drastically affected my personal eating habits.

I think abortion is a terrible, horrifying option. But I am glad it is a legal option. I think my emotions and my logic disagree on the topic a bit. Clearly a zygote is not a person, nor is a fetus. But If I had lost my daughter at say, 18 weeks I would have been devestated. At the same time, as an older woman who was giving birth for the first time, we had a much higher risk of complications and birth defects. My husband and I discussed it early in the pregnancy. We wanted a baby, but If the fetal tests had returned results of severe defects, including downs syndrome, we would have jointly agreed to terminate the pregnancy.  I have mental issues that mean I cannot care for a special needs child. I got my tubes tied the same day my daughter was born so I would never have to face such a choice again.

I grant that I am not in a position to judge the lives, circumstances, and choices of others. I am glad that options exist, for many at least. It has only improved society, as a whole, to give women this option more freely.

I'm glad your baby was born healthy. I'm also glad to hear you admit that you would not be able to care for a special needs child but let me say one thing on the issues of terminating a baby with down syndrome. 

My 20 year old daughter has down syndrome. She has a wonderful quality of life. She walks, talks, sings, dances, learns how to read and do basic math in school. She is capable of bathing herself and getting snacks from the kitchen. To say that she wouldn't have any sort of quality of life is a misnomer. Nearly every child born with down syndrome is fully capable of learning as "typical" people do. It just takes them longer. Many are born with medical issues that can be fixed with surgery. Many have no medical issues at all. There is quite a large number of adults within the down syndrome community who lead independent lives. Some even marry. Males are born sterile, females have a 50% chance of giving birth to a child with down syndrome. 

All that being said, I am a strong advocate of getting ride of the triple screening tests that determine not only down syndrome but spina bifida as well. Why? Because they are only screenings. They are at best between 40 - 60% accurate. I had one and the screening showed zero signs of my daughter having down syndrome. These people CAN and DO go on to lead productive, active and happy lives. 

I cannot speak about other disabilities which are more severe because she doesn't have them. I can only speak for people who have down syndrome. And I would really hate to see someone terminate a pregancy based on a screening that isn't even capable of providing actual proof of down syndrome. Those who choose to do so are missing out on so much joy and love. While I firmly believe that it should always be a woman's right to choose, this is the ONLY area in which I am truly torn on the subject. While I have the views regarding my post here, I also have to say that if the fetus, no matter if it has down syndrome or not, is threatening the life of the mother and she will most  likely die if she carries to term, then by all means, the choice must be made to save her life. However, if the reasons are that one doesn't think they could raise such a wonderful child, please rethink that because there are so many people who would love the opportunity to raise a child with down syndrome via adoption. 

If given the chance to adopt a child with down syndrome, I would totally do it in a heart beat. Given my experience with being a mom of one already, I welcome that with open arms.

[Aroura]

OK, thanks.

If killing a zygote/fetus/whatever is as bad as killing a standard human, why is the doctor not being done for murder? And why isn't the woman being done for being complicit in a murder?

Dyr: Totally, the bible clearly supports abortion.

Because I don't think abortionists are bad people like murders are. I think it's just as bad of an act, but a person's culpability is lessened if they don't fully see a human fetus as a human being and don't believe/understand that they are killing a person.

And how do you feel about the fact that when abortion is outlawed, it does not actually save any "babies", or lessen abortions done, it only makes them more dangerous to the woman or girl who has one?  

If your goal is to lessen abortions, then outlawing them is NOT the way to do it.  Kind of like how prohibition was one of the drunkest times in history. 

[Catholic_Lady]

Well there's no way to prove one way or the other whether outlawing abortion would save any lives or not... though I really think it would. I think a lot of women would not want to get them if it was more socially understood and accepted that it's a human being in there.

[Joods]

She secretly knows we will all get our comeuppance when we die. She knows she will be proven right in the end, and this is one way she deals with her frustration, by privately gloating about this. I am not making this up or being mean, I happen to know for a fact that she is much nicer to our faces than behind our backs.

But she is only human, just like the rest of us, so I don't hold it against her. Most people can't even be nice to our faces, lol.

There's no point in trying to be nice anymore, while children are irreparably damaged at the hands of religious people, my coiuntry is sliding at a steepening angle toward outright theocracy. If you don't understand this, then maybe you've had the privelige of being raised non-religious.

I do find it beyond disturbing that the general well-being (health, self-esteem, self-understanding through sound education) of innocent children are being treated as less important by apparently senior members of this forum than your misguided emphasis on putting on a nice face for people who have never, ever played nice, have never, ever played clean, and who never, ever will do either while they are in power.

You're new here. Quit grandstanding with your misspelled words and your ignorant behavior. CL has more than proved herself to be a valueable member of this forum. While I don't always see eye to eye with her views, she has been kind, decent, compassionate and deserves to be here just as much as any other valued member. I respect her for who she is and she's my friend so back the fuck off. Your last sentence was clearly directed at CL. You know nothing about her to be making such absurd assumptions.