The Problem of Good

[robvalue]

So God is all-powerful except for when he isn't.

Got it in one!

Whenever it's convenient, God suddenly has these arbitrary obstacles to work around, to make us feel sorry for him and that he's "trying his best". Some people won't make their mind up once and for all whether he made the rules, or whether he's working within rules that were already there.

Like most religious beliefs, it is malleable rather than consistent, so as to bend to any particular situation favourably.

[ApeNotKillApe]

It's the adult equivalent of claiming to be wearing invisible armor that absorbs all damage.

[orangebox21]

So God is all-powerful except for when he isn't.

God is all powerful except when you ask Him to do nonsensical things.

There's a yes and a no to that.  God is limited to act in a manner consistent within His nature.  So God can't sin, nor does He tempt anyone, nor could He do something that is logically incoherent.  Apart from that God is all powerful.

Apart from that being pretty ad hoc, there's actually no reason to believe that's the case.  If I tell you it is not in my nature to lie and that I cannot lie... is the only logical conclusion you can draw from that that I must be telling the truth?

If someone cannot lie, then he/she can only tell the truth.  The conditional is self-evident.  I'm not claiming that I justify God.    

I don't want to get too off track here but I'll mention two things here.  First, the punishment is established by the law giver, not the law breaker.  Secondly, how do you know that sinning against God ends at death?  Some people have openly admitted that even if the Christian God proved Himself to them, they still wouldn't worship Him.  Why assume this isn't the attitude of the unrepentant sinner even after death?

Yes... and there's still no reason to assume that sin is necessary, at all. If sin isn't necessary, neither is the punishment. If God can do anything but sin or tempt people, there's no reason to believe that his "plan" requires divine law/sin.

Like I said before, sin and suffering are a part of God's decree to bring about His purposes.  And one of those purposes is the revelation of God's mercy and justice.

Just out of curiosity, would your opinion change if the child was going to grow up to be a warmonger unlike the world has ever seen?  What about a serial killer who would kill 20 people?  15? 10?  5000?  What about someone who would grow up to reinstitute the worship of Molech (throwing infants into a fire)?

If the child hasn't done it yet, then why should God punish it with hell? I thought the whole point of the free will defense is that we need to be able to make choices, and that's what justifies hell. If the kid hasn't made the decision yet, on what basis is God punishing it? I mean, yes, God is supposed to be able to see the future, but now we're getting into hard determinism.

I agree that it seems inconsistent that God would punish someone for sins he/she is going to commit.

Which man gave God his nature and declared what he can and can't do?  It must have been the con man that created the God character in his image.

Who is this man you speak of?

So God is all-powerful except for when he isn't.

Got it in one!

Whenever it's convenient, God suddenly has these arbitrary obstacles to work around, to make us feel sorry for him and that he's "trying his best". Some people won't make their mind up once and for all whether he made the rules, or whether he's working within rules that were already there.

Like most religious beliefs, it is malleable rather than consistent, so as to bend to any particular situation favourably.

What sense is made in expecting someone or something to be what he/she/it is not?

[RobbyPants]

God is all powerful except when you ask Him to do nonsensical things.

Apart from that being pretty ad hoc, there's actually no reason to believe that's the case.  If I tell you it is not in my nature to lie and that I cannot lie... is the only logical conclusion you can draw from that that I must be telling the truth?

If someone cannot lie, then he/she can only tell the truth.  The conditional is self-evident.  I'm not claiming that I justify God.    

But that wasn't what I said. I never said you need to justify God, and I understand the tautological nature of only being able to tell the truth if you cannot lie.

What I said is that there's no possible way you can know that God cannot lie. The only way that can be communicated to you is if God tells you, and you have to trust that God is telling the truth; you can't actually know it.

Seriously: prove to me in an undeniable way that God cannot lie. Any proof you would bring could always be the result of some other deceit.

Yes... and there's still no reason to assume that sin is necessary, at all. If sin isn't necessary, neither is the punishment. If God can do anything but sin or tempt people, there's no reason to believe that his "plan" requires divine law/sin.

Like I said before, sin and suffering are a part of God's decree to bring about His purposes.  And one of those purposes is the revelation of God's mercy and justice.

But why is it necessary for him to show us mercy and justice?

That'd be like me letting my daughter stick a fork in an electric socket, then when she asks me why I didn't warn her, if I said "so you could learn a lesson". I mean, yes, that would teach her a lesson... but so would telling her.

And what are these "purposes" you speak of?

[robvalue]

Religious multiple choice test

Is the answer

(A) Goddidit

Or

(B) But free will

Both answers are acceptable for any question.

[dyresand]

God is all powerful except when you ask Him to do nonsensical things.

Nien god is not all power neither all god or all knowing.

[orangebox21]

[RobbyPants]

Yes, and just because someone "reveals" that they haven't lied doesn't mean that he can't lie. Also, note that a lot of God's claims are non-falsifiable, so it's impossible to know he's not lying about those.

You have no reason to assume he's telling the truth other than you want him to be telling the truth. It's just wishful thinking. It doesn't mean he's lying, but you can't know it. Everything else you said was just shifting the goal posts away from me saying you can't know this. I mean, obviously you can't prove it. That's not the point; it's an unknowable claim, so Christians should stop making it. If they want to replace it with "I believe God only tells the truth", that'd at least be intellectually honest, but that certainly takes away all the punch from their claims.

[RobbyPants]

I missed this the first time around.

Just do a key word search in the Bible for purpose, decree, predestine, etc.  I'll note two.  It was God's purpose that Christ be crucified (Acts 2:22-24).  It is God's  purpose that salvation is freely received (Romans 9:10-18).

Now you've gone full circle. The purpose of sin is so that God can give us salvation from the sin he created in the first place. Without some other seed outside of this circle, it's useless and unnecessary. It's no different than me posting a sign reading "IT IS UNLAWFUL TO DEFACE THIS SIGN". I mean, that could be true and all, but if my goal is to not have that sign defaced, and if that sign is serving no other purpose... why even have the sign?

[orangebox21]

Yes, and just because someone "reveals" that they haven't lied doesn't mean that he can't lie. Also, note that a lot of God's claims are non-falsifiable, so it's impossible to know he's not lying about those.

And vice-versa.  

You have no reason to assume he's telling the truth other than you want him to be telling the truth.  It's just wishful thinking.

The only reason to know He is telling the truth is because He is the only one able to testify to the truth of the statement.

It doesn't mean he's lying, but you can't know it. Everything else you said was just shifting the goal posts away from me saying you can't know this. I mean, obviously you can't prove it.

Ok.  I disagree that knowledge is impossible, but I certainly understand your position.  The only way for it to be proven to you that God exists is for you to be as God is and since you're not God it can never be proven to you that He exists as claimed.    

That's not the point; it's an unknowable claim, so Christians should stop making it. If they want to replace it with "I believe God only tells the truth", that'd at least be intellectually honest, but that certainly takes away all the punch from their claims.

Given the previous criteria I agree that it is an unknowable claim.  And given your criteria I can understand your contention with the claim that "I can prove that God cannot lie."  Although I'm not sure that a Christian claiming that God cannot lie is the same as claiming he/she can prove it [according to your criteria].  And if you've understood my argument you'll understand that the two reasonable claims a Christian can make [and hopefully you're satisfied with] is to say that God says He tells the truth, and I believe Him.

I missed this the first time around.

Just do a key word search in the Bible for purpose, decree, predestine, etc.  I'll note two.  It was God's purpose that Christ be crucified (Acts 2:22-24).  It is God's  purpose that salvation is freely received (Romans 9:10-18).

Now you've gone full circle. The purpose of sin is so that God can give us salvation from the sin he created in the first place.

He didn't create sin.

Without some other seed outside of this circle, it's useless and unnecessary. It's no different than me posting a sign reading "IT IS UNLAWFUL TO DEFACE THIS SIGN". I mean, that could be true and all, but if my goal is to not have that sign defaced, and if that sign is serving no other purpose... why even have the sign?

I did not say that sin's only purpose is that salvation is feely received.

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Please answer the question you've ignored twice.