A conversation with Robvalue about religion.

[Mystic]

Edit: to reply to the above, OK, yes I acknowledge that's what you think about Islam. What more can I say?

I haven't proven Islam but you haven't proven we don't have knowledge of God and his Oneness for example either. 

Somethings are about perception. If we are reminded of certain things, for example, we may perceive ourselves or reality with a perception we would not otherwise done without the reminder.

With the reminder, it's not about asserting this is reality so believe in it, but that we perceive it to be reality or part of reality, through reminder.

For example, angles. I first only new about angles less then 180 degrees. I thought it was impossible to have any angle more then 180 degrees. Till I was shown, what if you think of this as an Angle. 

Triangles. We can prove their properties in so much ways now. 

So perception, sometimes, is that, it's perception.

We see ourselves all the time. But if we are reminded of important properties of ourselves, that we been believing and seeing, but not really thinking about and really looking at deeply with reflection, then it's not a matter of just asserting but pointing to insights and vision.

[robvalue]

I don't need to prove we don't have knowledge of God. That is called the argument from ignorance fallacy. It's an unfalsifiable proposition, by definition I can't prove it false any more than you can prove it true.

Yes, we often don't perceive things until they are pointed out. But you have already pointed out what you think to be true, and to me it's still blatantly totally unsupported. Coming up with excuses as to why I can't see it is to just bury yourself completely in a hypothetical example and not to consider it might actually not be true.

I'm not "demanding" evidence, I simply observe that there is none. I'm trying to help you, here To me, it's quite obvious that faulty thinking is keeping you caught in a mental trap that is making you miserable while feeling compelled to defend it.

[Mystic]

You're using the word "ought" to mean what God wants us to do again. If he puts it in our nature, he's programming us to do something. That's not a reason to do it. This is exactly what I'm talking about, thinking for yourself. Human nature is not something independent from God, if he made us. It's just his opinion of what we should do.

Obviously it's not in my nature to submit to anyone or anything. If God made me that way, then he can deal with it. I'm doing just fine. I don't want to "ascend to" anything which is bullying me into submission, I want nothing to do with them.

If he didn't want us to think for ourselves, he shouldn't have given us the ability to do so.

I would suggest some serious thought about this issue, because it seems you are indeed someone who cannot conceive of not bowing down to a celestial dictator just because they exist and demand that you do.

Order/balance.
Chaos/disorder.

Let's discuss these two things. What do you think Quran says about the balance? What is the light according to Quran?

Rebellion is good, but not against God, but rather against illegitimate authority and darkness.

Submission is disgraceful but not towards God, but towards our low desires or low desires of others who lead us astray.

Wisdom is to put everything  in it's place. 

[robvalue]

Of course the Quran is going to back up what God wants you to do, because it's God apparently inspiring it again. This is the same argument. It's all coming from him. Him telling you what to do.

I don't care what God considers disgraceful. Why should I?

[Mystic]

I'm talking about what the reality of ourselves are. Balance. What does this word mean to you? Chaos. What does this word mean to you?

What I wrote in italics were my own words, not that of the Quran.

[robvalue]

OK. I don't understand how it's relevant, but I'll try my best.

Balance, in a general sense, means keeping one amount in proportion with another amount, or several amounts all evening out, so that none become overpowering and cause things to "fall". Regarding life, I would take this to mean taking in all aspects of life and not being too obsessed with one thing, so that it consumes you and you miss out or even become physically/mentally unhealthy.

Chaos, informally, I would say is a lack of structure, where things are going all over the place. Regarding life, this would be not thinking things through and rushing from one idea to another, or perhaps a society with no proper rules where people don't work together.

Notice how I'm doing just fine without submitting to anyone. I feel I have a good balance in my life, and I'm doing the best that I can, given my illnesses.

[robvalue]

While we all wait for my brain to work, here's a little music regarding the angst of evidence-based living.

http://youtu.be/ZXB5_DQNct8

LMFAO it was funny all the way though and then by the last line I fucking pissed myself laughing OMFG LMFAO

I love it. Watching it again. Lol.

Thanks so much! I love making people laugh

I'm really glad you enjoyed it! I'll carry on making silly videos as well as serious ones

[Mystic]

OK. I don't understand how it's relevant, but I'll try my best.

Balance, in a general sense, means keeping one amount in proportion with another amount, or several amounts all evening out, so that none become overpowering and cause things to "fall". Regarding life, I would take this to mean taking in all aspects of life and not being too obsessed with one thing, so that it consumes you and you miss out or even become physically/mentally unhealthy.

Chaos, informally, I would say is a lack of structure, where things are going all over the place. Regarding life, this would be not thinking things through and rushing from one idea to another, or perhaps a society with no proper rules where people don't work together.

Notice how I'm doing just fine without submitting to anyone. I feel I have a good balance in my life, and I'm doing the best that I can, given my illnesses.

I think you highlighted some important features of the balance. To me, the balance is important, in that it's an program/code in us, that helps live peaceful lives. It teaches us not to go to extremes. It's important that we have time for our family. It's important we do things for society. It's important that we put time for our own joy and happiness. It teaches us also not go to extremes in virtues, but excel in them in a balanced way. Courage, but not foolishness to the extent of getting yourself killed for no reason. It's wisdom put into practice. Honor, but not arrogance. It teaches to be Humble, but not disgraceful.  It teaches us to love things in a meaningful way, not excessive or neglectful. It teaches us to care about ourselves, but to not to extent we become selfish in that we always prefer ourselves to others or are willing to trample on the rights of others for ourselves. 

Part of the balance is issue of spiritually and our attachment and devotion to God. Even Worship of God can be extreme. If all we do is pray, do rituals, recite his words, etc, it becomes unhealthy way of living.

However, if we embrace the balance as his will, and to our best to embrace the balance and put it to practice, we will be at peace.

That is to say, from my understanding, God didn't program us with balance only so we distrust his commands. We can see that he is caring and compassionate towards us.
 
However I believe without love towards the source of the balance and the ultimate perfect balance (God) that excels in virtue, we are living unbalanced lives. 

In fact, the balance is not created randomly, but from God's truth, at such we cannot be at peace except with the remembrance of God.

This is because God is the peace. He entrusted peace and order in the form of balance.

Chaos on the other hand to me, is the reality of evil and darkness. It makes a mess of God's face and light, and disorders what God enjoined.

It's further worse, when our rebellion towards God not only effects our souls and it's relationship with God, but make us neglect the order and balance his Messengers were sent with to bring so that humanity rises with justice and conducts itself with justice.

Why should you care about what God defines as disgraceful? Because he is what defines disgraceful, and any degree of vision of what is disgraceful can only take place from vision from his vision, light from his light.

Just as the balance is God's Name/face itself, is linked to him, and connected to him.

[Mystic]

I will remind my approach is to come to a mutual understanding. For example, to me, the balance's link to the eternal source is clear. It's something I claim to perceive. I understand you don't accept that, but, this is not about convincing either side, but coming to a mutual understanding.

Remember you stated you didn't want me simply trying to convince you/convert you and we agreed the thread was to come to a mutual understanding.

[robvalue]

Your first post above made good sense right up until you started talking about spirituality. Then I'm afraid I have no clue what you mean after that. I understand this is all very real to you, I don't doubt that. But you are describing a world I have no experience of, one extremely unlike the one I've spent nearly 39 years in.

I don't know how much further we can get, but I appreciate you trying.

You seem obsessed with god's opinion of everything. If he wanted mindless automatons, he should have made them. If he wanted things that don't think and just follow him around doing whatever he says, he should have made them. But, if he exists at all, he gave us a brain and the ability to decide for ourselves what is important. You're suggesting he did so just to expect us to act as if we didn't have one.

What could a being as powerful as a god possibly get out of us submitting to it? It's almost as if it only exists if enough people believe in it...