If you were ever a theist...

[*Deidre*]

If I had religious experiences I'd be more befuddled than converted. I wonder why we humans use such experiences to jump to wild conclusions about reality.

Is it all that wild to think there could be a supernatural force behind the universe? Not that wild, to me. lol

[*Deidre*]

Hi Catholic Lady, well...I had an experience of faith a few months ago, something I'd consider was the Holy Spirit. I know that to many here (and I'd have thought this at one time too) that it could have been a coincidence, but even if I apply Occam's Razor to it, I believe it was spiritual as to what happened. So, I came back.

Such experiences kept me in Hinduism for years.  Even after having officially crossed the line into atheism, I was still very vulnerable to the emotional component of such experiences.  Thanks to some words of robvalue, I've become inured against those emotions.  It's clear to me now how there is the standard apophenia that we all experience, seeing things that seem to defy our expectations of chance, and the tendency to invest such things with emotional value.  The two can be separated, and in my case, they now are.  The coincidences and experiences are no longer emotionally laden bombs, waiting to draw me back.

Curious as to your experiences, and I don't know much about Hinduism. What is interesting to me about your story is that I'm not alone in what I've experienced, but we just took different paths with it, I guess. Much appreciate your replies in here.

[Mystic]

I think it doesn't matter what someone experiences, if they have a certain attitude towards doubt and disbelief. For example, suppose a piece of paper you felt came out of your foot. It had some directions, "Let *insert your name* do this and that". It was in fact in your Mom's hand writing. You go show it to your Mom, and she is baffled on who wrote it, and says this is her hand writing but she didn't write it. And you vividly remember it coming out of your foot.

A skeptic can even doubt such an experience. He may think his mom is tricking him, but, how did she make him feel it came out of his foot? Of course, that had to be a delusional experience, it was just under his foot. So you have two things to doubt - 1. Your mother. 2. Your own experience. It's like your mom knew you would have a delusional experience or wanted you to have it. And then doesn't even say, yeah she wrote it.

So I would say even if you could not be 100% sure, here trusting your mother, and trusting your vivid memory is more important.

It's further complicated when there is direction to go a certain place, and then after becoming a skeptic of faith, you win a two way ticket to that place.

These are signs. They are not perhaps full out signs that you can't deny, but they would be evidence.

Of course, sharing this experience with people who don't believe in God or supernatural, shouldn't be done, because, it's meant to be a proof for you.

But a person can doubt everything one experiences, even though it's more rational to believe in the experiences one experience sometimes.

[Mystic]

Let's add another factor. The piece of paper coming out of your foot.......happens RIGHT when you ask God to annul the falsehood and show the truth to you. Right when you ask him to do that. And that happens.

So you have that factor to. All a deception. Maybe Aliens warped it in to play games on you? Cause of course they have nothing better to do with such brilliant minds?

[Cecelia]

Do you have an example of paper coming out of someone's foot?

No? Instead the only 'supernatural' experiences are "God helped me find my car keys!" "God helped me find a job!" "God did all sorts of stuff that have many other explanations"

I like how theists make all kinds of assumptions about Atheists. Do you really think none of us ever believed that God did things? My husband used to believe that God spoke to everyone. He felt that God did it in the only way he could. When I told him I was an atheist, we'd sometimes discuss god, and any objections I brought up, he'd say that god wasn't some wizard, and that it took him millions of years to create the earth (He believed that six days mean Six of God's days, and not six earth days). He really believed that God talked to people, and that he tried helping people in the way he could. What got him to turn to Atheism was when I brought up that his idea of god was nothing like the bible's idea of God. And that his idea of god had no backing. I wasn't trying to convert him. We'd just discuss it sometimes. That's when he said he never considered that. He long believed that god talked to people. But that was more hope than fact.

I think some theists never really ask themselves questions about their own beliefs. Like with my husband when he was a Christian, I'd ask him questions about Noah's ark, and he never had any answers. He was honest, at least. He'd tell me he never really gave it much thought about how many animals there would have to be on the ark, or that Noah would have to take care of the animals, or why there's no evidence of Kangaroos ever being anywhere other than Australia. I should note that I asked him questions because I was less sure of my (lack of) belief than I am now. I wanted to find out if there was a god. Because I had trouble believing. Now I'm comfortable not believing because of lack of evidence. What most theists call evidence isn't really evidence, and the examples given are comparable at all. I mean paper coming out of someone's foot? Call me when that actually happens.

[robvalue]

Hi Catholic Lady, well...I had an experience of faith a few months ago, something I'd consider was the Holy Spirit. I know that to many here (and I'd have thought this at one time too) that it could have been a coincidence, but even if I apply Occam's Razor to it, I believe it was spiritual as to what happened. So, I came back.

Such experiences kept me in Hinduism for years. Even after having officially crossed the line into atheism, I was still very vulnerable to the emotional component of such experiences. Thanks to some words of robvalue, I've become inured against those emotions. It's clear to me now how there is the standard apophenia that we all experience, seeing things that seem to defy our expectations of chance, and the tendency to invest such things with emotional value. The two can be separated, and in my case, they now are. The coincidences and experiences are no longer emotionally laden bombs, waiting to draw me back.

I'm really happy my words have helped you win the battle

You've done so well to fight through, it sounds like a really tough journey you had.

[Pizza]

If I had religious experiences I'd be more befuddled than converted. I wonder why we humans use such experiences to jump to wild conclusions about reality.

Is it all that wild to think there could be a supernatural force behind the universe? Not that wild, to me. lol

My problem is less with what could be and more with the fact that arguments based on religious experience for religion just beg the question by assuming their religion's explanation of such-experiences true without question. Christians aren't the only ones who report experiences and until Christians can give non-circular reasons I'm unimpressed.

Also "supernatural force" is just vague.

[Red_Wind]

If I had religious experiences I'd be more befuddled than converted. I wonder why we humans use such experiences to jump to wild conclusions about reality.

Is it all that wild to think there could be a supernatural force behind the universe? Not that wild, to me. lol

One has to wonder if said supernatural force is intelligent and conscious if it does not obey the same laws of physics as we do.

[Mystic]

Do you have an example of paper coming out of someone's foot?  

Scenario 1.
I don't and it's all hypothetical.
Scenario 2.


I answer I do and you ask me who, and how do I know?

Scenario 2.1

I say it's a trustworthy person. You then go on to talk about how can I know he is not lying etc...in other words. It's not really reliable unless you witness or I witness it first hand.

Scenario 2.2

This really happened to me. The scenario like above, is useless to people who didn't witness it first hand.

I do believe miracles happen all the time.

Abraham in Quran asked God to show him how he revives the dead so he can assurance and feel tranquility in his faith. He had faith without doubt, but he wanted tranquility. God gave him the ability to revive four dead birds with a power to call them to life.

However that's not all out of personal miracle he showed. He showed him the inward kingdom of the universe, in which he went on journey towards God. It's then he became of those who are certain.

The miracle to his people that fire would not burn Abraham, that's a proof for the people. But Abraham had personal miracles.

I also believe that God does talk to people who aren't Prophets or Guides. It's just that conversation is personal. He whispers to them secretly and they act openly.

People who God does talk to personally don't go claim it openly unless they are Guides with divine proofs from God that they are to be followed.

The issue is to me, I believe God will go out of his way for those who seek the truth with utmost striving and sincerity, and show them that extra miracle to make them feel tranquil. And then will show them more and more.

[Cecelia]

The issue is to me, I believe God will go out of his way for those who seek the truth with utmost striving and sincerity, and show them that extra miracle to make them feel tranquil. And then will show them more and more.

You are insinuating that neither my husband nor me sought truth with sincerity.  How is this any better than what you accuse atheists of doing? In fact, I would argue it is worse. Far worse.