The afterlife and the soul

[KevinM1]

That Discover Magazine article is terribly written.  The sigma value of the Higgs observation(s) has gone from 3.8 to ~4.9, with at least one independent observation suggesting 5.9.

http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/02/higgs-...sigma.html
http://understandinguncertainty.org/expl...id-they-do
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-19076355

Essentially, with repeat experiments and observation, certainty regarding the Higgs has grown to the point of statistical certainty it exists.  In other words, by continuing to do science, the people at CERN have not only verified their earlier discovery, but strengthened the evidence for it many times over.

And, yes, scientists get paid to do science.  Just like clergy get paid to spew bullshit.  The difference is that scientists post their methodology and results to be challenged by others because it is only through rigor that scientific discoveries are accepted.  Bullshit is weeded out of science.  It may take time (a lot of experiments and the data they produce are labor intensive), but it's weeded out.

[Angrboda]

While I think objections to substance dualism are overstated, I am not here advocating that position. Perhaps you missed this line from my previous post in this thread.

...the idea of a ectoplasmic-type soul, distinct from the body isn't an exclusively Christian idea nor is it even a necessary Christian doctrine. If living human beings are hylomorphic unions, then a soul without a body isn't a complete human, hence Christians can say that the dead 'sleep' until they are revived in new glorified bodies.

This was a reply specifically to Drich. My point to him was that Christianity as a religion isn't committed to substance dualism, although some Christians may be.

Basic theory [hylomorphism]

Aristotle applies his theory of hylomorphism to living things. He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive. Life is a property of living things, just as knowledge and health are. Therefore, a soul is a form—that is, a specifying principle or cause—of a living thing. Furthermore, Aristotle says that a soul is related to its body as form to matter.

Hence, Aristotle argues, there is no problem in explaining the unity of body and soul, just as there is no problem in explaining the unity of wax and its shape. Just as a wax object consists of wax with a certain shape, so a living organism consists of a body with the property of life, which is its soul. On the basis of his hylomorphic theory, Aristotle rejects the Pythagorean doctrine of reincarnation, ridiculing the notion that just any soul could inhabit just any body.

According to Timothy Robinson, it is unclear whether Aristotle identifies the soul with the body's structure. According to one interpretation of Aristotle, a properly organized body is already alive simply by virtue of its structure. However, according to another interpretation, the property of life—that is, the soul—is something in addition to the body's structure. Robinson uses the analogy of a car to explain this second interpretation. A running car is running not only because of its structure but also because of the activity in its engine. Likewise, according to this second interpretation, a living body is alive not only because of its structure but also because of an additional property: the soul is this additional property, which a properly organized body needs in order to be alive. John Vella uses Frankenstein's monster to illustrate the second interpretation: the corpse lying on Frankenstein's table is already a fully organized human body, but it is not yet alive; when Frankenstein activates his machine, the corpse gains a new property, the property of life, which Aristotle would call the soul.

Wikipedia | Hylomorphism

I fail to see how this distinguishes itself from physicalism without some form of dualism.  If consciousness consists of the [natural] form and activity of the brain, then how is that distinguishable from physicalism? On top of that, this sounds suspiciously like a revival of vitalism.

[Brian37]

After death you will only exist in the memory of those who knew you, asking where you go after that is like asking where the music goes when the band stops playing.

Damn, awesome analogy. I am sooooooo stealing that!

Again, in several recent threads I feel it is important to keep restating the same thing. Being finite and accepting that is not advocating doom and gloom. ABBA is no longer together, and every time I play their songs, the song ends. The Redskins haven't won a Superbowl since 91 and they suck, but everyso often they beat Dallas. 

You go to a music concert knowing it will end, but you still go. You go to a movie knowing it will end, but you still go. You go to a sporting event knowing it will end but you still go. You read a book knowing it has a last page, but you still read it. You don't fear life before the concert starts. You don't fear life before you go to the movie. You don't fear the book before the first page.

Fearing a non existence afterlife is like fearing your pre life. Nobody frets over the death of a weed in their lawn, or a cockroach. Nobody thinks the dinosaurs have "souls". Humans are simply one species on one tiny speck riding in a giant weather pattern that will be here long after we are gone.

I think that the conditions that lead to us being here are fucking amazing to think about without filling it with gap answers and fictional utopias. Life has ups and downs and some get affected by both some more than others. But all you can do is take the bad with the good and keep moving on.

[Vincent]

Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.

[Brian37]

Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.

 Damn it, all those choices what to do what to do, all this time I thought it was Thor. Isn't there someone who could make this clear to all? It can be that humans make up gods as a gap filling placebo for a sense of false comfort. It has to be Poseidon, or maybe Vishnu. Man, I feel like a DMV worker, long lines everyone making different claims but nobody can get passed the eye chart.

[mediocrates]

Some documentary somewhere at some time had some supporting math? -fail

so we'll just read a centuries old book of fairy tails from a technical POV in lieu of actual current science? -fail

then google it.. that All I did to chop you down to size. Don't be so lazy. If your going to refute someone do it properly!

KevinM1 already responded to what you said about the Higgs argument and I agree, so I'll leave that one alone sport.

There's still the matter of the quote above... It's not my job to find your evidence for you.  If you're going to make extraordinary claims do it properly; with extraordinary evidence.  Your fact-less comments left me nothing to refute.

[The Grand Nudger]

RE hylomorphism...

He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive.

"Soul" appears to be metabolism, mystery solved.

[Brian37]

RE hylomorphism...

He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive.

"Soul" appears to be metabolism, mystery solved.

Or, skip the superfluous superstitious word "Soul" and simply accept what we call "I" is merely our brain in motion.

[Neo-Scholastic]

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While I think objections to substance dualism are overstated, I am not here advocating that position. Perhaps you missed this line from my previous post in this thread.


This was a reply specifically to Drich. My point to him was that Christianity as a religion isn't committed to substance dualism, although some Christians may be.

Basic theory [hylomorphism]

Aristotle applies his theory of hylomorphism to living things. He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive. Life is a property of living things, just as knowledge and health are. Therefore, a soul is a form—that is, a specifying principle or cause—of a living thing. Furthermore, Aristotle says that a soul is related to its body as form to matter.

Hence, Aristotle argues, there is no problem in explaining the unity of body and soul, just as there is no problem in explaining the unity of wax and its shape. Just as a wax object consists of wax with a certain shape, so a living organism consists of a body with the property of life, which is its soul. On the basis of his hylomorphic theory, Aristotle rejects the Pythagorean doctrine of reincarnation, ridiculing the notion that just any soul could inhabit just any body.

According to Timothy Robinson, it is unclear whether Aristotle identifies the soul with the body's structure. According to one interpretation of Aristotle, a properly organized body is already alive simply by virtue of its structure. However, according to another interpretation, the property of life—that is, the soul—is something in addition to the body's structure. Robinson uses the analogy of a car to explain this second interpretation. A running car is running not only because of its structure but also because of the activity in its engine. Likewise, according to this second interpretation, a living body is alive not only because of its structure but also because of an additional property: the soul is this additional property, which a properly organized body needs in order to be alive. John Vella uses Frankenstein's monster to illustrate the second interpretation: the corpse lying on Frankenstein's table is already a fully organized human body, but it is not yet alive; when Frankenstein activates his machine, the corpse gains a new property, the property of life, which Aristotle would call the soul.

Wikipedia | Hylomorphism

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I fail to see how this distinguishes itself from physicalism without some form of dualism.  If consciousness consists of the [natural] form and activity of the brain, then how is that distinguishable from physicalism? On top of that, this sounds suspiciously like a revival of vitalism.

Following Aquinas, I'm suggesting a kind of essentialism and asking how the idea of an emergent property in a material substance differs from the manifestation of a distinguishable essence.

[Sheed1980]

Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.

Sure my friend. There are many proofs to use against u but I'll only use a couple. Osiris was supposedly KILLED by his brother Typhon. God Almighty(Allah)never has and never will be seized by death. Plus Osiris had an image that people could look at him. Allah does not have a physical image that can be seen by humans in this life.

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What u have to consider is that Allah(God) created us out of nothing.

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 What I mean by this is that with the big bang theory Someone had to start the big bang. So Allah decided how everything of our universe: galaxies, planets, stars, atmospheres were going to be formed from the big bang explosion. Then He simply said the word "Be" and everything came into being. I'm not saying all at once but into the process of particles becoming planets and stars etc. Then at a point in time after our Earth had been in existence for so long, as said in the Holy Qur'an, He sent His angels, messengers He created from light, to gather handfuls of earth. Black dirt, white dirt, red dirt, brown dirt and yellow dirt.(which is why we as humans come in all different colors) Then the angels mixed the dirt with water, the element that gives life, and made it a sticky clay. Then the clay was moulded into a statue which God brought to life as Adam(PBUH). So as u see since the Earth was created from absolutely nothing(big bang), and Adam(PBUH)was created from the earth, this verifies that we as mankind, like everything else Allah created, came from nothing. He created us all from nothing. So if Allah has the power to create us from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then after we die after having been SOMETHING, why couldn't He bring us back to life? Not to belittle Allah Almighty's power but It seems less of a miracle to bring something back to life that once existed, than to create life into existence from nothing at all. Also ur brain is not what gives life. Yes it is a very, very important factor to our living, but not the cause of life. Brain-dead people considered vegetables
still are alive until their souls are removed from their bodies. This world we live in now is temporary. We were all created for the afterlife. Eternally to reside in Paradise or Hell-fire, where life will be many, many times better or worse than we could possibly imagine. So as we are taught in the Qur'an, when u feel ur soul exiting ur body, it will be one of two ways. For a good believer(Muslim)angels with faces white as the sun come down to him from heaven with one of the shrouds of paradise and some of the perfume of paradise and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Good soul, come out to forgiveness and acceptance from Allah.’ It then comes out as a drop flows from a water-skin and he seizes it; and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but take it and place it in that shroud and that perfume, and from it there comes forth a fragrance like that of the sweetest musk found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their asking, "Who is this good soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the best names by which people called him on the earth. They then bring him to the lowest heaven and ask that the gate should be opened for him. This is done, and from every heaven its archangels escort him to the next heaven until it is brought to the seventh heaven, and Allah who is great and glorious says, ‘Record the book of my servant in Illiyyun and take him back to earth, for I created mankind from it, I shall return them into it, and from it I shall bring them forth another time.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘ Who is our Lord’ He replies, ‘My Lord is Allah.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ and he replies, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They ask, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ and he replies, ‘He is Allah’s Messenger.’ They ask, ‘What is your [source of] knowledge?’ and he replies, ‘I have read Allah’s Book, believed in it and declared it to be true.’ Then one cries from heaven, ‘My servant has spoken the truth, so spread out carpets for him from paradise, and open a gate for him into paradise.’ Then some of its joy and its fragrance comes to him, his grave is made spacious for him as far as the eye can see, and a man with a beautiful face, beautiful garments and a sweet odor comes to him and says, ‘Rejoice in what pleases you for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks, ‘Who are you, for your face is perfectly beautiful and brings good?" He replies, ‘I am your good deeds.’ He then says, ‘My Lord, bring the last hour; my Lord, bring the last hour, so that I may return to my people and my property. For the disbeliever/wicked soul angels with black faces come down to him from heaven with hair-cloth and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Wicked soul, come out to displeasure from Allah.’ Then it becomes dissipated in his body, and he draws it out as a branch of thorns is pulled out from wet wool. He then seizes it, and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but put it in that hair-cloth and from it comes forth a stench like the most offensive corpse found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their saying, ‘Who is this wicked soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the worst names that he was called in the world. When he is brought to the lowest heaven request is made that the gate be opened for him, but it is not opened for him. (Allah’s Messenger (saws) then recited, ‘The gates of heaven will not be opened for them and they will not enter paradise until a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.’ Allah who is most Great and Glorious then says, ‘Record his book in Sijjin in the lowest earth,’ and his soul is thrown down. (He (saws) then recited, ‘He who assigns partners to Allah is as if he had fallen down from heaven and been snatched up by the birds, or made to fall by the wind in a place far distant.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He replies, Alas, alas, I do not know.’ Then one cries out from heaven, ‘He has lied, so spread out carpets from hell for him, and open a gate for him into hell.’ Then some of its heat and hot air comes to him, his grave is made narrow for him so that his ribs are pressed together in it and a man with an ugly face, ugly garments and an offensive odor come to him and says, Be grieved with what displeases you, for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks ‘Who are you, for your face is most ugly and brings evil?’ He replies, ‘l am your wicked deeds.’ He then says, My Lord, do not bring the last hour.[/font][/size] [/i]    

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tl;dr
Allah doesn't exist.   Yahweh doesn't exist.  Neither does Jesus, Zeus, Mithra, Ahura-Mazda, Odin, Apollo, Osiris, Ra, Shiva, Rama, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny.

It will be proven my friend. I just hope for everyone's sake that they are believing before it's their time to die and leave this life. BUT I GUARANTEE it will definitely happen. When? That knowledge sits with Allah alone.