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The afterlife and the soul
#51
RE: The afterlife and the soul
That Discover Magazine article is terribly written.  The sigma value of the Higgs observation(s) has gone from 3.8 to ~4.9, with at least one independent observation suggesting 5.9.

http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/02/higgs-...sigma.html
http://understandinguncertainty.org/expl...id-they-do
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-19076355

Essentially, with repeat experiments and observation, certainty regarding the Higgs has grown to the point of statistical certainty it exists.  In other words, by continuing to do science, the people at CERN have not only verified their earlier discovery, but strengthened the evidence for it many times over.

And, yes, scientists get paid to do science.  Just like clergy get paid to spew bullshit.  The difference is that scientists post their methodology and results to be challenged by others because it is only through rigor that scientific discoveries are accepted.  Bullshit is weeded out of science.  It may take time (a lot of experiments and the data they produce are labor intensive), but it's weeded out.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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#52
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 10:51 am)ChadWooters Wrote: While I think objections to substance dualism are overstated, I am not here advocating that position. Perhaps you missed this line from my previous post in this thread.

Quote:...the idea of a ectoplasmic-type soul, distinct from the body isn't an exclusively Christian idea nor is it even a necessary Christian doctrine. If living human beings are hylomorphic unions, then a soul without a body isn't a complete human, hence Christians can say that the dead 'sleep' until they are revived in new glorified bodies.

This was a reply specifically to Drich. My point to him was that Christianity as a religion isn't committed to substance dualism, although some Christians may be.

Quote:Basic theory [hylomorphism]

Aristotle applies his theory of hylomorphism to living things. He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive. Life is a property of living things, just as knowledge and health are. Therefore, a soul is a form—that is, a specifying principle or cause—of a living thing. Furthermore, Aristotle says that a soul is related to its body as form to matter.

Hence, Aristotle argues, there is no problem in explaining the unity of body and soul, just as there is no problem in explaining the unity of wax and its shape. Just as a wax object consists of wax with a certain shape, so a living organism consists of a body with the property of life, which is its soul. On the basis of his hylomorphic theory, Aristotle rejects the Pythagorean doctrine of reincarnation, ridiculing the notion that just any soul could inhabit just any body.

According to Timothy Robinson, it is unclear whether Aristotle identifies the soul with the body's structure. According to one interpretation of Aristotle, a properly organized body is already alive simply by virtue of its structure. However, according to another interpretation, the property of life—that is, the soul—is something in addition to the body's structure. Robinson uses the analogy of a car to explain this second interpretation. A running car is running not only because of its structure but also because of the activity in its engine. Likewise, according to this second interpretation, a living body is alive not only because of its structure but also because of an additional property: the soul is this additional property, which a properly organized body needs in order to be alive. John Vella uses Frankenstein's monster to illustrate the second interpretation: the corpse lying on Frankenstein's table is already a fully organized human body, but it is not yet alive; when Frankenstein activates his machine, the corpse gains a new property, the property of life, which Aristotle would call the soul.

Wikipedia | Hylomorphism

I fail to see how this distinguishes itself from physicalism without some form of dualism.  If consciousness consists of the [natural] form and activity of the brain, then how is that distinguishable from physicalism? On top of that, this sounds suspiciously like a revival of vitalism.
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#53
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 7, 2016 at 7:19 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: After death you will only exist in the memory of those who knew you, asking where you go after that is like asking where the music goes when the band stops playing.

Damn, awesome analogy. I am sooooooo stealing that!

Again, in several recent threads I feel it is important to keep restating the same thing. Being finite and accepting that is not advocating doom and gloom. ABBA is no longer together, and every time I play their songs, the song ends. The Redskins haven't won a Superbowl since 91 and they suck, but everyso often they beat Dallas. 

You go to a music concert knowing it will end, but you still go. You go to a movie knowing it will end, but you still go. You go to a sporting event knowing it will end but you still go. You read a book knowing it has a last page, but you still read it. You don't fear life before the concert starts. You don't fear life before you go to the movie. You don't fear the book before the first page.

Fearing a non existence afterlife is like fearing your pre life. Nobody frets over the death of a weed in their lawn, or a cockroach. Nobody thinks the dinosaurs have "souls". Humans are simply one species on one tiny speck riding in a giant weather pattern that will be here long after we are gone.

I think that the conditions that lead to us being here are fucking amazing to think about without filling it with gap answers and fictional utopias. Life has ups and downs and some get affected by both some more than others. But all you can do is take the bad with the good and keep moving on.
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#54
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 11:20 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.
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#55
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 2:05 pm)Vincent Wrote:
(January 8, 2016 at 11:20 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.

 Damn it, all those choices what to do what to do, all this time I thought it was Thor. Isn't there someone who could make this clear to all? It can be that humans make up gods as a gap filling placebo for a sense of false comfort. It has to be Poseidon, or maybe Vishnu. Man, I feel like a DMV worker, long lines everyone making different claims but nobody can get passed the eye chart.
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#56
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 12:31 pm)Drich Wrote:
Quote:Some documentary somewhere at some time had some supporting math? -fail

so we'll just read a centuries old book of fairy tails from a technical POV in lieu of actual current science? -fail
then google it.. that All I did to chop you down to size. Don't be so lazy. If your going to refute someone do it properly!

KevinM1 already responded to what you said about the Higgs argument and I agree, so I'll leave that one alone sport.

There's still the matter of the quote above... It's not my job to find your evidence for you.  If you're going to make extraordinary claims do it properly; with extraordinary evidence.  Your fact-less comments left me nothing to refute.
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#57
RE: The afterlife and the soul
RE hylomorphism...

Quote:He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive.
"Soul" appears to be metabolism, mystery solved.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#58
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 2:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: RE hylomorphism...

Quote:He defines a soul as that which makes a living thing alive.
"Soul" appears to be metabolism, mystery solved.

Or, skip the superfluous superstitious word "Soul" and simply accept what we call "I" is merely our brain in motion.
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#59
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 1:23 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:


I fail to see how this distinguishes itself from physicalism without some form of dualism.  If consciousness consists of the [natural] form and activity of the brain, then how is that distinguishable from physicalism? On top of that, this sounds suspiciously like a revival of vitalism.

Following Aquinas, I'm suggesting a kind of essentialism and asking how the idea of an emergent property in a material substance differs from the manifestation of a distinguishable essence.
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#60
RE: The afterlife and the soul
(January 8, 2016 at 2:05 pm)Vincent Wrote:
(January 8, 2016 at 11:20 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Then who created us where did we come from? I agree with u about all those other names except Allah and Jesus(PBUH). Allah is God Almighty and Jesus(PBUH)was one of His greatest messengers and prophets to mankind

Allah is a false god and Jesus was a false prophet. 

I believe Osiris is the one true God. 

Prove me wrong.
Sure my friend. There are many proofs to use against u but I'll only use a couple. Osiris was supposedly KILLED by his brother Typhon. God Almighty(Allah)never has and never will be seized by death. Plus Osiris had an image that people could look at him. Allah does not have a physical image that can be seen by humans in this life.

(January 8, 2016 at 11:17 am)drfuzzy Wrote:
(January 8, 2016 at 12:45 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: What u have to consider is that Allah(God) created us out of nothing.


tl;dr
Allah doesn't exist.   Yahweh doesn't exist.  Neither does Jesus, Zeus, Mithra, Ahura-Mazda, Odin, Apollo, Osiris, Ra, Shiva, Rama, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny.
It will be proven my friend. I just hope for everyone's sake that they are believing before it's their time to die and leave this life. BUT I GUARANTEE it will definitely happen. When? That knowledge sits with Allah alone.
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