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Nope. Not my point at all. I am not surprised you focused on something that was not even the point, though.
What I meant was that at least they have something to support their beliefs. At least they have things they can point to... books, churches, other people. All you have is your imagination.
If a theist NEVER tried to force their beliefs on me, I would never grow frustrated with those beliefs nor would I have anything to lose.
Unfortunately, I have to deal daily with theists forcing their beliefs on me, altering laws to make everyone believe the way they do, rewriting history and science to correspond to their beliefs instead of to the truth, trying to make me pray to their god, trying to force their religion on my child, telling me I am a bad person for not believing, so on, so forth.
What do I have to lose? Specifically, my freedom, my rights, and my life.
Because the simple truth is this: History has shown many times that Christians will kill and enslave in the name of their beliefs. You yourself may not advocate kicking all atheists out of the country. But if your fellow Christians did, I sincerely doubt you'd complain or try to stop them.
I am an atheist. I have never walked up to someone reading the bible and called them a horrible person. I've been accosted in public by Christians for my reading material, abused by Christians for my choice of dress, had Christians lock the doors to prevent people from leaving their sermon, had Christians threaten me with violence and actually get physical with me for not participating in their public prayer, had Christians follow me around campus to tell me what a horrible person I am and how I deserve a horrid fate because I declined their offer of a free bible, so on, so forth.
You claim it's only a small minority that do this. And that's fine, though I would question how 'small' a minority it really is, being that I was raised Christian and told many times it was my responsibility to convert those around me and 'spread the word'. I would like, however, to point out that the majority stood by and watched rather than trying to stop the behavior, and that same majority would be outraged if steps were taken to prevent that 'minority' from abusing people.
I do not try to convert. I try to educate.
This is like a "Rookie of the Year" class first post. Well said In This Mind!
Religious people point to things. I don't point to things. Yes, that's right. What do you point to?
I point to theists and then I laugh.
Seriously, though... I don't have to point to anything, as I'm not the one making outrageous claims. I suppose I can point to the fact that no theist has ever proven or provided solid evidence that his/her claims are true. I can also point to the complete lack of any compelling reasons to believe that there is a god of any kind and that no god is needed to explain the things we do not currently understand.
Mostly, though... I can point to people like you and ask you to prove what you say is true. So far... the rate of FAIL is 100%.
Reasons to believe or disbelieve are personal. So if you don't see a reason to believe something, that applies to you alone. It doesn't apply to the other person, by virtue of the fact that they believe in it. That brings us back to the original question. If all you do is look for ways to confirm to yourself what your views are already, can you convert a theist that way?
It's not about my 'beliefs'. It's about the claims made by theists. Mainly, the claim that god(s) exists. I do not believe that claim and have never been presented with a reason to believe it.
As to the question... I answered that already (as mo3 would say). I think that, given enough rational conversation and a willingness to actually think for themselves, a theist can become free of superstition. You do realize that almost all of us were once theists, right?
(July 8, 2010 at 12:23 pm)Godhead Wrote: Reasons to believe or disbelieve are personal.
If this were true, you wouldn't be here, forums like this wouldn't be necessary, 'in god we trust' wouldn't be plastered all over secular items, so on, so forth. People like you would simply accept that some people don't believe and be alright with that instead of proselytizing/witnessing to them at every opportunity. The question 'what religion are you' would never be asked.
Reasons to believe are societal, that's why religious people have so much trouble accepting it when members of their society believe differently, or, as in the case with atheists, simply don't believe at all.
A lot of you are ex christians. So am I. The trouble with religion is that it has an effect on one's way of thinking / attitude, and it's very powerful, I'm sure you'd agree. So powerful in fact, that it continues sometimes even after the person has left the religion itself. For an ex christian atheist, that often comes in the form of perpetually raging against the very thing they were once apart of, and indirectly hating those who are still apart of it, or, sometimes, theists of any type. The desire to evangelise and convert turns into a desire to destroy anything that even remotely represents what they feel disgusted at having been a part of. Understandable, certainly. Effective? No. It's just an expression of an emotion. For me, what has remained is a belief in god, albeit in a very different context. And now I find myself in the middle. I know that there are christians and other religious people who would ridicule me just as much as a lot of theists do. In that sense, atheists and religious people are very similar. It's a masterpiece of irony.
In this mind -
I do accept and I am ok with the fact that some people don't believe in god, and I don't preach, witness, or proselytize and never have. Again, I don't know where you're getting all of this from.
July 8, 2010 at 2:11 pm (This post was last modified: July 8, 2010 at 2:24 pm by In This Mind.)
(July 8, 2010 at 1:43 pm)Godhead Wrote: I do accept and I am ok with the fact that some people don't believe in god, and I don't preach, witness, or proselytize and never have. Again, I don't know where you're getting all of this from.
From your initial post, and what I have read of you thus far on these forums. Let us take your initial post, shall we?
'The purpose of this thread is to establish how an atheist would convert a theist to atheism. '
If you do not preach, witness, proselytize, and genuinely believe that belief is personal, why would you start this thread? Why would you even consider starting such a thread?
You and I both know the truth. You want to smugly laugh and say 'ha, you can't convert people to atheism because atheism is wrong, and my proof is that you can't convert me you'll just get angry and persecute me'. Been there, seen that, own way too many t-shirts. You don't want us to convert you, this is just another sideways attempt at witnessing. "See how strong I am against these atheists! Don't you want to be just like me? If you order now, you'll get a free white leather bible along with your Christ!' In short, you are setting yourself up to be 'persecuted', as demonstrated by your dismissal of disproving your stance as 'ridicule'.
'So, if you (atheists) were to attempt to convert a theist, how would you do it? Which methods would be most effective? Have you ever done it? If so, how? And which methods are least effective? Can you convert me? '
Yes, the truth of the matter is, if you were genuinely honest with yourself and willing to be rational, I could convert you. However, until you are genuinely honest with yourself and willing to take an honest, rational look at your beliefs, there is not conversion. It's no different than trying to help any other sort of addict. You are addicted to god and the comfort god gives you. You cling to god as my three year old clings to his teddy, because you believe it can protect you from the big scary world around you. It's easy to have faith. Just sit back and let others think for you and all your problems will magically go away. Except, just like in every other addiction, they don't. It's your crutch against reality, but reality always wins.
July 8, 2010 at 3:22 pm (This post was last modified: July 8, 2010 at 3:37 pm by strattosphere.)
(July 8, 2010 at 11:25 am)Godhead Wrote: Strattosphere -
I haven't abdicated a sense of morality. Where are you getting all this from?
As I said 'I don't know which particular brand of hokum you observe so I don't know if you're more or less dangerous than other believers'. Since we are talking in generalities 'Can atheists convert theists?' I had to generalise about the largest groups of believers, who typically (and fallaciously) say that morality can't exist without a belief in God. You are acting, for this arguments sake, as the apologist for theists and I am acting as the apologist for atheists.
Even if the morality point doesn't apply to you and you follow a moderate form of deity worship that appears harmless, you are part of the system that seeks to make acceptable any kind of belief in the supernatural. This flies in the face of evidence and logic and reduces humanity to slaves of an imaginary bully and renders us unable to fully enjoy the universe on its own merits.
(July 7, 2010 at 9:20 pm)Godhead Wrote: The purpose of this thread is to establish how an atheist would convert a theist to atheism.
Please let's not have a discussion solely about my beliefs or any other theist's beliefs as there are other threads where that can be discussed, this is specifically to see if you can convert me or any other theist.
We're not discussing how atheists would ridicule theists, or vice versa, and we're not discussing how you or I would consider the other person's views and disagree. We know that we disagree.
So, if you (atheists) were to attempt to convert a theist, how would you do it? Which methods would be most effective? Have you ever done it? If so, how? And which methods are least effective? Can you convert me?
Actually, to answer the question directly, can I convert you, the answer would have to be no. The problem here is that you would know already that I have an agenda, to get you to deconstruct your own reasoning and to get you to question your choice to talk yourself into accepting an additional external influence on your choices and thoughts. It would be far easier to convert you from one deity belief system to another as you're already wired up to believe. In fact I could be completely wrong but I suspect that you may already have done this once, perhaps from one of the mainstream religions to something more gentle and tolerant.
"Blasphemy! Blas for you! Blas for everybody in the room!" - Eddie Izzard
