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Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am
It is factual that the Bible contradicts itself. These errors are either part of the original documents, or else are transcriber errors. Since this is unknown, we assume in the favor of Christianity that these are transcriber errors.
It seems, then, that you believe two things: first, that a group of men who were doing all that they could to prevent the Bible from accumulating errors were unable to find assistance from God in this matter (John 14:13) and ultimately failed at their task; and second, that an ancient being who is described as clever at every opportunity and who is malicious to the gospel is somehow unable to at least match the blunders of the men who were doing their best to prevent errors from accumulating. If God allows men to corrupt the Bible, but prevents Satan from doing so, then it is natural to believe that God is impeding Satan's free will to the point that Satan can only do what God wants him to do, which is to say that Satan acts on God's behalf. If, on the other hand, God allows anything to happen to the Bible, and does not interfere, then you can be assured that the Bible says exactly what Satan wants it to say.
At the very least, we know we should treat the Bible like you would treat any document that is confirmed to contain both true and false claims: you have to meticulously comb over every claim and consult your own intellect to determine the truth value of each claim. Because with contradictions, you lose the "because it's in the Bible" defense. Why do you believe in the Flood? Because it's in the Bible? Well, contradictions are in the Bible, do you believe those are true, too? Clearly not, so you cannot use "because it's in the Bible" as an answer for belief. On some level you must use your own reasoning. Does your own intellect tell you it is reasonable to believe in talking donkeys?
There is another issue you really ought to use your own intellect on. It is regrettable and also somehow amusing to me, as a US citizen and former Christian, that the two documents I used to revere the most - the Bible and the Declaration of Independence - were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists. The Declaration of Independence, though, does not claim divine authority - or if it does, I think we tend to ignore that. So why, when you understand that a group of ancient savages drafted a system of morality and a proposed method of atonement, do you believe that adherence to these principles is in any way reasonable?
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:27 am
I think an introduction thread would have been better.
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:28 am
Ugh... The mailman delivered the letter to the wrong address again. Christians are next door...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:40 am
(This post was last modified: January 25, 2016 at 4:41 am by Nihilist Virus.)
(January 25, 2016 at 4:27 am)Kitan Wrote: I think an introduction thread would have been better.
I'm not sure how many people would care about my life story.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:28 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Ugh... The mailman delivered the letter to the wrong address again. Christians are next door...
Well it's true I am new here... but this seems to be the correct sub-forum. 
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:44 am
If you are new to the forum, it is necessary that you create an introduction thread.
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:49 am
(January 25, 2016 at 4:40 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Well it's true I am new here... but this seems to be the correct sub-forum.
I suppose - it is. Not too many christians will read your letter on an atheist forum, though. And those that might - have most likely encountered those arguments before - just in the previous threads on this forum alone. 
Anyhow - welcome to the forum.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:54 am
(January 25, 2016 at 4:44 am)Kitan Wrote: If you are new to the forum, it is necessary that you create an introduction thread.
Very well.
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 4:57 am
(This post was last modified: January 25, 2016 at 4:58 am by robvalue.)
Hello, welcome 
All good points. I put it mainly down to indoctrination and/or being saturated with the mythology and/or appeal to popularity. The conclusion is already drawn, that this is "the word of God", and so the logical reasoning that gets the person there is of secondary importance to them. Or to put it another way, they begin with the assumption that the conclusion is true, and then consider that any problems "must be explainable".
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 25, 2016 at 5:19 am
(January 25, 2016 at 4:44 am)Kitan Wrote: If you are new to the forum, it is necessary that you create an introduction thread.
False. It is nice if you do, but it is not necessary by any means. Kindly leave thread moderation to staff.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Open letter to Christians
January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: It is factual that the Bible contradicts itself.
Please define what you mean by 'contradicts.'
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: These errors are either part of the original documents, or else are transcriber errors. Since this is unknown, we assume in the favor of Christianity that these are transcriber errors. What do you mean here? We have enough manuscripts and various lines of transmission to determine where the textual variants are. The vast majority of these variants have no effect on the meaning of the text, though some do.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: It seems, then, that you believe two things: first, that a group of men who were doing all that they could to prevent the Bible from accumulating errors were unable to find assistance from God in this matter (John 14:13) and ultimately failed at their task; What are your references that Christians specifically prayed in Jesus name that there would be no transcriber errors? I'm not saying these accounts do not exist, I'm just asking for some references to support your claim.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: and second, that an ancient being who is described as clever at every opportunity and who is malicious to the gospel is somehow unable to at least match the blunders of the men who were doing their best to prevent errors from accumulating.
In actuality having multiple lines of transmission has shown the text as reliable, more than a single line of transmission would have.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: If God allows men to corrupt the Bible, but prevents Satan from doing so, then it is natural to believe that God is impeding Satan's free will to the point that Satan can only do what God wants him to do, which is to say that Satan acts on God's behalf.
Bit of a stretch to say that scriber errors that can be verified and accurately corrected [due to multiple lines of transmission] equate to the Bible being corrupted, but if you believe that, then where? Where is the Bible corrupted?
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: If, on the other hand, God allows anything to happen to the Bible, and does not interfere, then you can be assured that the Bible says exactly what Satan wants it to say. That assumes that only God can impede Satan's will. In other words, that assumes that without God's direct restraint everything would be under Satan's control. Is that true? Can you prove it?
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: At the very least, we know we should treat the Bible like you would treat any document that is confirmed to contain both true and false claims: you have to meticulously comb over every claim and consult your own intellect to determine the truth value of each claim. Can we determine the truth value of every claim in the Bible? Is it possible to prove that God is all knowing apart from His word?
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Because with contradictions, you lose the "because it's in the Bible" defense. Why do you believe in the Flood? Because it's in the Bible? Well, contradictions are in the Bible, do you believe those are true, too? Clearly not, so you cannot use "because it's in the Bible" as an answer for belief. On some level you must use your own reasoning. Does your own intellect tell you it is reasonable to believe in talking donkeys? This assumes a premise that has not been proven, namely that the Bible has contradictions.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: There is another issue you really ought to use your own intellect on. It is regrettable and also somehow amusing to me, as a US citizen and former Christian, that the two documents I used to revere the most - the Bible and the Declaration of Independence - were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists.
Weird, I thought Luke was a physician.
(January 25, 2016 at 4:19 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: The Declaration of Independence, though, does not claim divine authority - or if it does, I think we tend to ignore that. So why, when you understand that a group of ancient savages drafted a system of morality and a proposed method of atonement, do you believe that adherence to these principles is in any way reasonable? Is an argument based upon the genetic fallacy in any way reasonable?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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