God: The Great Tempter

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Since it comes with the job description of god that he can't die. Three personas, one of them died - for three days. That's a magic trick rather than a sacrifice. But we've already been there, months ago.

OK.  Obviously you don't want to pursue it, but if Jesus was a man, then a man died.

If Jesus was a man what was the sacrifice?  My neighbor died.  Did he die for your sins?

[robvalue]

This is another recurring problem when I talk to theists.

I often very much suspect they don't actually understand what they are saying. They use phrases they have heard somewhere, or maybe even come up with themselves as ad hoc rationalizations.

I would say that if you don't understand something, you can't believe it. You can believe that it is probably true based on other factors, but you can't actually directly believe it is true.

For example, I don't understand quantum mechanics. I have, at best, an incredibly superficial understanding. So I can't say I believe it is true, because I can't even describe what it is I'm believing. I don't believe it isn't true either, for the same reason.

However, I know the theory was arrived at using the scientific method, that it is falsifiable, and has practical applications which wouldn't work if the theory wasn't true. So I have indirect evidence that makes me feel comfortable that it is probably true.

I do know, however, that there are people who do understand it, and who I could go to, as well as a wealth of resources. I could investigate it further and learn more. I'm not going to hit a brick wall of "Because I said so" at any point.

With stuff like "God is outside time" and "jesus is 100% man and 100% God" and "God is Jesus, God is the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit is not Jesus", no one understands it. No one can explain it. No one can give any demonstration that it even makes sense, let alone is actually true. You will always come up against a wall with these things, because at some point, someone has simply made it up.

There's a crucial difference here, between this religious stuff and QM: I'm not basing any important decisions on QM. So even if it isn't true, it's not actually of any consequence to me. However, people can and do make massive life decisions based on religious stuff which doesn't make sense, and would be awful decisions if the religion is in fact fictional.

[ignoramus]

Agree Rob. Everybody, theist or otherwise, in the whole world relies on science every single day of their life.
Whether it's taking a plane, driving somewhere, getting a flu shot in a third world country, etc.

When does science NEED religion for anything? Never.
If mother nature was waiting for God to intervene so we can evolve, we'd still be protozoan...Not here on the net talking with each other in real time from anywhere in the world.

[robvalue]

That's right.

Ultimately, I'm a pragmatist. I do what works. I'm here, you're all here. We have no idea "why", or if there even is a why. We just have to get on with it. Science is about finding out how this reality works, so we can achieve the outcomes we want. Everyone uses it almost all the time, at least a simplified form of it; they just don't like to admit it. Like people who say maths is absolutely useless are constantly using it just to plan their day and so on.

What do we want to do though? What should we do? Those are the much more difficult questions, and science has no answer. There is no "right answer", there is us working together to see what we can come up with. Some people can't handle that and need to be told what to do; or else want to feel justified that what they are doing is more than just following their emotions, or has some external purpose.

[Rhondazvous]

Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.  When we say talk about the Trinity, that is the explanation of Jesus.

That makes 200 percent. Pretty large for a person.

Apart from that - 100 percent god is good enough to be immortal and to simply shed 100 percent human, since it didn't matter.

I want a reasonable explanation from you. Not some theological gobbledigok that you obviously can't transform into a reasonable thought. Not even priests are able to and stumble over the trinity everytime, when asked to deviate from their dogmatic script.

And the thing about it is the bible has nothing to say about the nature of the trinity. Jesus prayed to the father for the church to be one just as he and the father are one. . Christians can only tell you what the trinity isn't, but never what it is because no explanation has any biblical support.

[Rhondazvous]

Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.  When we say talk about the Trinity, that is the explanation of Jesus.

No, it isn't. It's just infantile, convoluted, meaningless bullsh*t, used by weak-minded people to confuse each other, so that they don't have to face the realization, that they've been kidding themselves and they don't really know anything about anything.

It was totally idiotic of god to not give Adam a sense of right and wrong then expect the man to chose between right and wrong. Your efforts to paint such idiocy as superior wisdom isn't convincing at all.

Free will? So you would put a baby in a room with a shiny red button and tell him not to press the button, then go and come back doing damage control after the world blows up, talking about you didn't force the baby to push the button?

[robvalue]

Yep. Mark, the only real account (if you can even call it that) makes no mention of Jesus being God.

Most of the mythology comes from the later accounts where extra details have been made up and added over time. But even then, the trinity is not well supported.

[Rhondazvous]

That makes 200 percent. Pretty large for a person.

Apart from that - 100 percent god is good enough to be immortal and to simply shed 100 percent human, since it didn't matter.

I want a reasonable explanation from you. Not some theological gobbledigok that you obviously can't transform into a reasonable thought. Not even priests are able to and stumble over the trinity everytime, when asked to deviate from their dogmatic script.

OK.  I'll answer your question.  To me the concept of the Trinity is reasonable, but not understandable.  It's reasonable to me because I believe in an all-powerful God.  And you're right that the priests and me are giving you the biblical answer to your question.  I'm 100% aware that the whole God thing can't be proven by natural means.  I think many things point to God, but I can't do an experiment to prove it.  I think Abaris exists, but I'm not really sure.  If I knock on your door and meet you face to face, then I'll be certain that you exist.  I'm only sure God exists because every time I feel I'm ready to leave christianity, for no apparent reason he reinforces my faith.  I can honestly say that I'm aware of science and human reason and all, but though I have considered leaving christianity, I've never in my life considered being an atheist.

And you have chapter and verse biblical support for this?

[abaris]

And the thing about it is the bible has nothing to say about the nature of the trinity. Jesus prayed to the father for the church to be one just as he and the father are one. . Christians can only tell you what the trinity isn't, but never what it is because no explanation has any biblical support.

Because, guess what? The dogma came long after the bible was compiled. The bible says nothing about it because there was nothing to say. The followers of Arian for example, pretty powerful in the early stages of christianity, never accepted Jesus as god.

It's only when the high and mighties realized that they had a form of politheism, whoops, entrance of the trinity.

[Lek]

And the thing about it is the bible has nothing to say about the nature of the trinity. Jesus prayed to the father for the church to be one just as he and the father are one. . Christians can only tell you what the trinity isn't, but never what it is because no explanation has any biblical support.

Because, guess what? The dogma came long after the bible was compiled. The bible says nothing about it because there was nothing to say. The followers of Arian for example, pretty powerful in the early stages of christianity, never accepted Jesus as god.

It's only when the high and mighties realized that they had a form of politheism, whoops, entrance of the trinity.

Yes. There is no one sentence in the bible that states that God is one, but consists of three separate persons. The doctrine of the trinity was formulated by compiling statements from the bible as a whole.