The Christian God Does Violate Human Free Will

[ApeNotKillApe]

I see your point, but I'm not going to refrain from discussion just to avoid the off chance that some dirtbag will use my words to confirm their position as an ignoramus. Those sorts of people will seek ways to reinforce their stupidity regardless.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You know, folks. There's one point where I'm leaning to the radical atheist side. And this is it.

Some of us discussing the free will issue, as if there really was a divine entity enforcing it. It's men made like everything else in religion.

And here's why I take issue with that. Think, I said it before at some point in another thread. If there's the appearance of discussing god's actions, it opens opportunities for that theist talking point of us just being angry at god.

The counter to that is to say that we aren't angry at God any more than we are angry at Vishnu or Set. We are angry at the idea of God. We are angry at all the physical and psychic pain that this idea has caused. We are angry that this false notion has caused otherwise good people to torture and kill over different ideas. We are angry that a wrong (and wrong headed) idea has cause the sacrifice of infants and the burning of witches. We are angry at how the idea of God has caused people to stand idly by while their fellows humans were marched into oven.

In attacking the idea of God, the most atheists can be guilty of is sloppy speech. I've done it myself when I say, 'Why would God do such-and-such' when I should really phrase it, 'How can you countenance the idea that you God would do such-and-such'. The theistic position is so weak, so untenable, than they're pouncing on grammatical laziness rather than address the inherent, self-defeating proposition that is the idea of God.

So, no. I'm not angry at God. I'm angry at theists for thinking God is a good idea.

Boru

[Drich]

The bible tells us that when Jesus returns, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he is lord.   In order to do this won’t god have to violate a lot of free will?

Their will be billions of people who will look back at all the pain, the sorrow, the agony, anger, violence, misery, injustice and suffering that has permeated human history, and when god reveals his ultimate plan, they will say, “No! The end doesn’t justify the means.”

These people will have to be forced if every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess.

But if god is the same unchanging today, yesterday and forever, why was he unwilling to violate free will not even to prevent suffering and evil, but is now will to violate it to force people to worship him?

Does anyone else have a problem with the priorities of this psycho egomaniac? No, I should say with the people who dreamed up this psycho egomaniac and called him god.

Maybe that's why neither in the OT nor the NT is the term "free will" ever mentioned. Matter of fact Jesus says the opposite. That we are 'slaves.' Slaves either to Him, (where is load is lite, and his burden is easy.) or slaves to sin.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Matter of fact Jesus says the opposite. That we are 'slaves.' Slaves either to Him, (where is load is lite, and his burden is easy.) or slaves to sin.

Isn't this a tacit admission that humans have the freedom to chose one or the other? If we have freedom to choose, we have free will, no?

Boru

[Angrboda]

I'm a slave to teh boogie woogie. Devil music got my soul!

[Drich]

Matter of fact Jesus says the opposite. That we are 'slaves.' Slaves either to Him, (where is load is lite, and his burden is easy.) or slaves to sin.

Isn't this a tacit admission that humans have the freedom to chose one or the other?  If we have freedom to choose, we have free will, no?

Boru

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Where they allowed to 'choose one another?' from time to time yes (given the right owner.)

As such we (some of us) have been given this same 'freedom.'

If you look at human History this right to 'choose one another' is not an intrinsic Human right.

[IATIA]

That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

Of course it does.  One intervention suggests that there might be more than one, which then begs the questions of how often and how would one know either way?  The system is corrupt and unusable.  How would one know that god was not revoking 'free will' 100% of the time and just letting us have the feeling of "free will"?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Maybe ya'll are just choosing not to be believe in free will? Or perhaps you just don't believe in it because the initial conditions of the universe made you to not do so?

[vorlon13]

Slaves have free will, otherwise this would not happen:

[IATIA]

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Of course, as much as anyone else does. Making a choice involves desire, achieving that choice is an entirely different matter.