The Christian God Does Violate Human Free Will

[Rhondazvous]

You know, folks. There's one point where I'm leaning to the radical atheist side. And this is it.

Some of us discussing the free will issue, as if there really was a divine entity enforcing it. It's men made like everything else in religion.

And here's why I take issue with that. Think, I said it before at some point in another thread. If there's the appearance of discussing god's actions, it opens opportunities for that theist talking point of us just being angry at god.

The counter to that is to say that we aren't angry at God any more than we are angry at Vishnu or Set.  We are angry at the idea of God.  We are angry at all the physical and psychic pain that this idea has caused.  We are angry that this false notion has caused otherwise good people to torture and kill over different ideas.  We are angry that a wrong (and wrong headed) idea has cause the sacrifice of infants and the burning of witches.  We are angry at how the idea of God has caused people to stand idly by while their fellows humans were marched into oven.

In attacking the idea of God, the most atheists can be guilty of is sloppy speech.  I've done it myself when I say, 'Why would God do such-and-such' when I should really phrase it, 'How can you countenance the idea that you God would do such-and-such'.  The theistic position is so weak, so untenable, than they're pouncing on grammatical laziness rather than address the inherent, self-defeating proposition that is the idea of God.

So, no.  I'm not angry at God.  I'm angry at theists for thinking God is a good idea.

Boru

I don't understand why theists think they've won a brownie-point by saying that we secretly believe in god. They know that what you said above is what we are angry at. Misrepresenting atheists is not going to convince us that god is real, so why do they bother?

[dyresand]

The counter to that is to say that we aren't angry at God any more than we are angry at Vishnu or Set.  We are angry at the idea of God.  We are angry at all the physical and psychic pain that this idea has caused.  We are angry that this false notion has caused otherwise good people to torture and kill over different ideas.  We are angry that a wrong (and wrong headed) idea has cause the sacrifice of infants and the burning of witches.  We are angry at how the idea of God has caused people to stand idly by while their fellows humans were marched into oven.

In attacking the idea of God, the most atheists can be guilty of is sloppy speech.  I've done it myself when I say, 'Why would God do such-and-such' when I should really phrase it, 'How can you countenance the idea that you God would do such-and-such'.  The theistic position is so weak, so untenable, than they're pouncing on grammatical laziness rather than address the inherent, self-defeating proposition that is the idea of God.

So, no.  I'm not angry at God.  I'm angry at theists for thinking God is a good idea.

Boru

I don't understand why theists think they've won a brownie-point by saying that we secretly believe in god. They know that what you said above is what we are angry at. Misrepresenting atheists is not going to convince us that god is real, so why do they bother?

Because they want to sleep better at night thinking they won a argument. In truth they never won any argument at all for their position.

[Rhondazvous]

I'm a slave to teh boogie woogie.  Devil music got my soul!

Listening to some right now.
D.C. GoGo

http://rhondadenisejohnson.com/BustinLoose.mp3

[Rhondazvous]

Maybe ya'll are just choosing not to be believe in free will?  Or perhaps you just don't believe in it because the initial conditions of the universe made you to not do so?

Another case of theists deliberately misunderstanding a clear point.

I did not start this thread to discuss whether I believe in free will. The thread is a refutation of the Christian claim that god allowed evil into the world out of respect for human free will. The bible itself is its own refutation. All I'm doing is pointing out what it says.

[Drich]

Slaves have free will, otherwise this would not happen:

I did not say slaves have free will. I said they have the right to chose what their masters allow. The right to choose is not 'free will.' Even in the most dramatic depictions of the worst examples of slavery, slaves were given the right to choose a mate a marry. Think "Roots" Kunta was allowed to 'jump the broom stick' with a woman of his choosing. Again not all of the slaves all of the time, had this right. it depended on their master.

We are all slaves in that we all have a narrow field of true choices to make. Our choices are determined by which master we choose to serve. God or Sin.

[Drich]

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Of course, as much as anyone else does.  Making a choice involves desire, achieving that choice is an entirely different matter.

Ah, no they don't their will is determined by who the serve. Look up or wiki the philosophy of free will before you respond don't just go by your own personal understanding.

[The Grand Nudger]

Ah, trying to get around an issue by demanding that we consider ourselves slaves......it's worked so well for you in the past.......

I choose to serve neither, and there's nothing you can do about it...slave. You're as powerless as your master in that regard.

[Drich]

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Where they allowed to 'choose one another?' from time to time yes (given the right owner.)

As such we (some of us) have been given this same 'freedom.'

If you look at human History this right to 'choose one another' is not an intrinsic Human right.

You can't have it both ways.  You claimed that Jesus says there is no free will, now you're making the case for free wiil.

The question isn't whether free will is a human right, but whether, in the context of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-creating God, free will is even possible.

Boru

No.. Free will is the ability to choose any path we see fit.

For instance lets say their is an eternal life and you had the ability to choose it regardless of what God may have to say. If you can choose eternal life for yourself and can live that life any way you wish. then one can claim the mantel of freewill. Otherwise If someone with greater authority restricts your ability to make those types of choices, and perhaps gives you one or two choices to make

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology

[Drich]

Ah, trying to get around an issue by demanding that we consider ourselves slaves......it's worked so well for you in the past.......

I choose to serve neither, and there's nothing you can do about it...slave.  You're as powerless as your master in that regard.

What ever helps you get through the day little man.. Tell yourself you are the king of the world if need be.. Just try not to loose touch with all reality.

[The Grand Nudger]

Who said anything about being king of the world?  I'm just not a slave, like you, I don't choose to serve either of the things you chose between, nor do you..as a slave..have the ability to confine my choices any more than your chosen master.  

At least -try- man......