The Problem with Christians

[Ryantology]

The multiverse theory is basically saying that other dimensions exist.

Only in the sense that the term 'dimension' is used as an equivalent of 'universe'. Also, there is no theory of multiverse, as there is no evidence to test. It's a hypothesis, an assertion that may fit within the framework of evidence we already have, but we are not able to test the idea to see how good it is. Belief in a creator god is also a hypothesis for the same reasons.

This isn't in conflict with the Scriptures. The 12th century Hebrew scholar Nachmonides concluded from his studies of the book of Genesis that the universe has ten dimensions: four are knowable and six are beyond perception.

If these six dimensions are beyond perception, nobody could write about them with any authority.

[Angrboda]

The multiverse theory is basically saying that other dimensions exist. This isn't in conflict with the Scriptures. The 12th century Hebrew scholar Nachmonides concluded from his studies of the book of Genesis that the universe has ten dimensions: four are knowable and six are beyond perception..

Citation needed.

He claimed a 13th century Rabbi named Nachmanides had determined from Genesis that the Universe contained 10 dimensions, and thus discovered something in the Bible that scientists would not learn for another seven centuries. Thus the literal interpretation of Genesis was validated. I had to point out to him that there is no record of Nachmanides making this claim...

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/article...d1037.html

[robvalue]

I just found this amazing prophetic message written on the back of a pencil case! If you interpret it in the right way, by duplicating and rearranging letters, it predicts every scientific discovery ever made. And it predicts every one that will ever be made in the future, too.

Are you ready?

---

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

---

I'm astonished no one has noticed this before.

[Mudhammam]

Belief in a creator god is also a hypothesis for the same reasons.

Well, not quite... Creator god can only be supposed on some pretty unjustifiable inferences, and even then it's rife with conceptual difficulties, whereas the multiverse seems to follow, or at the very least remains consistent with, certain deductive conclusions one can validly draw in logic and mathematics

[AJW333]

Given that the context of the discussion concerns the ever increasing complexity of life, and in particular the transition of one species into another entirely different one, the scale of mutations required to do this is massive.

That, or the quantity of mutations need to be large. Or hell, not even that: small mutations that intensify over time would eventually become these big, massive mutations, without ever mutating a whole lot in a single generation. Like, say you have an ancient giraffe with a short neck, and one has a minor mutation that means its neck is longer and it can feed off of higher branches. If that's a survival advantage such that it gets passed on, then the genes for that longer neck are already present, and having a slightly longer neck is also an advantage that would get passed down. But then in that second generation, the genes for the longer neck are already present and can be built on, generation by generation, inch by inch, until eventually you have a modern giraffe. At no point in that process do you have a huge mutation, you just have a series of small-yet-advantageous ones accumulating over time, but the end result is still a dramatic difference.

Concerning the evolution of the giraffe's neck, there are a number of tissues that have to lengthen significantly. This includes  the muscles, bones, nerves, arteries, veins and connective tissue. The heart also needs to be significantly bigger to pump the blood. And the higher blood pressure requires stronger blood vessels, valves and thicker arterial walls to cope. Thus we have to have positive DNA mutations in a large number of tissues at the same time, otherwise the survivability of the animal will be threatened. In addition, the multiple positive mutations in the DNA must occur in the sex cells, not just the somatic cells, otherwise the trait won't be passed down.

To make matters worse, the fossil record shows no intermediate length giraffe necks. If the evolution of the long neck took millions of years, where are the intermediates?

[Mudhammam]

To make matters worse, the fossil record shows no intermediate length giraffe necks. If the evolution of the long neck took millions of years, where are the intermediates?

No? Then what is this right here?

[pocaracas]

Speaking of the giraffe...

[Esquilax]

That, or the quantity of mutations need to be large. Or hell, not even that: small mutations that intensify over time would eventually become these big, massive mutations, without ever mutating a whole lot in a single generation. Like, say you have an ancient giraffe with a short neck, and one has a minor mutation that means its neck is longer and it can feed off of higher branches. If that's a survival advantage such that it gets passed on, then the genes for that longer neck are already present, and having a slightly longer neck is also an advantage that would get passed down. But then in that second generation, the genes for the longer neck are already present and can be built on, generation by generation, inch by inch, until eventually you have a modern giraffe. At no point in that process do you have a huge mutation, you just have a series of small-yet-advantageous ones accumulating over time, but the end result is still a dramatic difference.

Concerning the evolution of the giraffe's neck, there are a number of tissues that have to lengthen significantly. This includes  the muscles, bones, nerves, arteries, veins and connective tissue. The heart also needs to be significantly bigger to pump the blood. And the higher blood pressure requires stronger blood vessels, valves and thicker arterial walls to cope. Thus we have to have positive DNA mutations in a large number of tissues at the same time, otherwise the survivability of the animal will be threatened. In addition, the multiple positive mutations in the DNA must occur in the sex cells, not just the somatic cells, otherwise the trait won't be passed down.

So do you just not listen to responses anymore? Because I feel like I just explained this to you in the post you quoted: the supporting tissues would only have needed to grow and alter a tiny bit each generation. It's not crazy to think that the muscles etc would extend like an inch or two each time, potentially even less than that. You keep phrasing this like all those mutations would have had to happen all at once, over the complete Giraffe neck, but you know that's not the case, so why do you keep doing that? Why so dishonest?

Also? The entire construction of your "argument" here is little more than an argument from personal incredulity: "I don't believe this could have happened naturally, therefore it didn't." Do you have anything more substantial than your opinion- uneducated as it is- that it can't have happened? Do you have any positive evidence for your god at all, or are you still reduced to poking holes in other people's positions? You are aware that doing that doesn't do anything to prove your position, right?

To make matters worse, the fossil record shows no intermediate length giraffe necks. If the evolution of the long neck took millions of years, where are the intermediates?

It took Nestor less than an hour to find one for you. And you keep wittering on about intermediates, as though I haven't explained to you, twice now, how rare fossil formation is. So the question is: how much research did you do into this subject before you decided there weren't any intermediates?

You avoid this question every time I ask it, such that I've taken to asking it every time now. Could it be that the answer, every time, is "no research at all"?

[IATIA]

Just like two midgets can have a giant, there is no need for an intermediate. Mayhap there was a mutation that elongated the neck of a single giraffe and as this gene was passed on through the generations, not being detrimental to survival, it proved successful in the long run.

[robvalue]

Yeah but, where's the one inbetween that one you just showed me, and another one?

Where's every fossil that has ever been made? Why can't you show me every fossil ever, in a forum post, on what isn't even a science forum?

When fossils are found, the falsifiable criteria of the theory are put to the test. Not some vague wibbling about "an event of epic proportions happening somewhere at some point".

Guess what happens when they are found? Of course, any actual scientist wouldn't need to be told all this.