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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 8:07 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2016 at 8:07 am by robvalue.)
(April 4, 2016 at 1:43 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: (April 3, 2016 at 4:28 pm)Cephus Wrote: It's still a stupid belief to start off with. If that's what you start off with, you're an irrational idiot. I don't accept giving that kind of thing a pass.
I guess my point is that even with the pass, they're still irrational. Irrational inception.
I agree, although I see it more as their actions betraying their words. They don't believe as strongly as they say they do, or as much as they think they do.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am
(April 4, 2016 at 8:07 am)robvalue Wrote: (April 4, 2016 at 1:43 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I guess my point is that even with the pass, they're still irrational. Irrational inception.
I agree, although I see it more as their actions betraying their words. They don't believe as strongly as they say they do, or as much as they think they do.
This whole thing is based on the premise that Jesus made it an absolute rule that you have to have to sell all your belongings and give to the proceeds to the poor. He did not. The point that it would be irrational to not give all your belongings just to possibly boost your chances has not been made. I do agree that many Christians don't live up to many of Jesus' words but that doesn't invalidate Jesus or his teachings.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 9:18 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2016 at 9:19 am by robvalue.)
And that is based on your own interpretation of the text. You don't get to tell others how to interpret it.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:22 am
Christianity appears to be the Hydra... there are so many interpretations of the vague scriptures, plus figuring out what is literal/figurative, what was meant for only the person to whom Jesus was speaking (or the churches to which Paul was writing) versus what is meant as an answer to that person but applied to everyone, and of course which of the violent remnants of the OT we plan to cherry-pick for the modern age. I mean, did he mean I can handle actual snakes, or not? Then of course, there are the extra-Biblical traditions of the various churches, such as the goat-hoofed, forked-tailed, pitchfork-carrying Devil... or worshiping on Sundays instead of the actual Sabbath.
And on it goes, until every single Christian with whom you argue can tell you that you're the one who's failing to understand Christianity.
I've been trying to avoid commenting thus far, but I have to jump in here because Won2blv is starting to piss me off.
1) No, they're NOT saying Jesus made it an absolute rule.
2) They're saying it might be a way Jesus was showing everyone is a part of the path to heaven.
3) If you believe the Jesus stories, then it is irrational not to increase your chances of doing what Jesus wanted, and therefore getting yourself into heaven, by following this one thing he wanted (and all the other things).
It doesn't matter, for the purposes of this discussion, if it actually increases your chances, or if that's what the verse actually means. So you're arguing about nothing!
Stop. Think.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:27 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2016 at 11:29 am by robvalue.)
I agree, we have millions of christians all telling us their interpetation and telling us any other christian who disagrees with them is wrong. But they are special, they are right.
Can't they see how useless that is, from our perspective? It's exactly what you'd expect when there is no right answer whatsoever. It's just stories. All that can be said for sure is what the words say. Well, sometimes not even that, due to translation errors and such.
And ironically, if there ever was a Jesus, what is written about him is likely to bear almost no resemblance to what he did or said. We're reading the Jesus rumour mill.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:47 am
(April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am)Won2blv Wrote: (April 4, 2016 at 8:07 am)robvalue Wrote: I agree, although I see it more as their actions betraying their words. They don't believe as strongly as they say they do, or as much as they think they do.
This whole thing is based on the premise that Jesus made it an absolute rule that you have to have to sell all your belongings and give to the proceeds to the poor. He did not. The point that it would be irrational to not give all your belongings just to possibly boost your chances has not been made. I do agree that many Christians don't live up to many of Jesus' words but that doesn't invalidate Jesus or his teachings.
What invalidates Jesus' teachings is that they're impossible to clarify, let alone live up to.
I am John Cena's hip-hop album.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 3:18 pm
(April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am)Won2blv Wrote: (April 4, 2016 at 8:07 am)robvalue Wrote: I agree, although I see it more as their actions betraying their words. They don't believe as strongly as they say they do, or as much as they think they do.
This whole thing is based on the premise that Jesus made it an absolute rule that you have to have to sell all your belongings and give to the proceeds to the poor.
I said repeatedly that this is not the case. This is not what I said. Kindly fuck off.
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:29 pm
(April 4, 2016 at 3:18 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: (April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am)Won2blv Wrote: This whole thing is based on the premise that Jesus made it an absolute rule that you have to have to sell all your belongings and give to the proceeds to the poor.
I said repeatedly that this is not the case. This is not what I said. Kindly fuck off.
So what is your point? I have asked you multiple times and you haven't even responded to that simple question. That is in addition to the multiple fallacies you've displayed. You instead have digressed to ad hominem attacks
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:32 pm
(This post was last modified: April 5, 2016 at 12:09 am by Won2blv.)
(April 4, 2016 at 9:18 am)robvalue Wrote: And that is based on your own interpretation of the text. You don't get to tell others how to interpret it.
Have I ever pandered to my own interpretation? Or is there some kind of special pleading here for NV? My point that I keep making over and over again is that you can't take one account and draw such vast conclusions from it. He has said multiple times that it would be "irrational" for a christian to not sell all of their belongings. He hasn't proven that in any way. Taking one single account and drawing major conclusions is the fallacy of composition. That still hasn't been addressed by the NV. Also, it reminds me of Matt Dilahuntys debate with Sye where Sye kept playing short clips of random things Matt said.
Also, in response to your other recent post... I am not trying to preach any specific brand of christianity. I have pointed out my past beliefs as a way of showing how some of the points made are straw men arguments but thats about it. If you make a claim, then you have the burden of proof. So no matter what brand of christianity you're speaking to, if your argument sucks, then it sucks
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RE: I was on the atheist experience :)
April 4, 2016 at 11:35 pm
(April 4, 2016 at 11:47 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: (April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am)Won2blv Wrote: This whole thing is based on the premise that Jesus made it an absolute rule that you have to have to sell all your belongings and give to the proceeds to the poor. He did not. The point that it would be irrational to not give all your belongings just to possibly boost your chances has not been made. I do agree that many Christians don't live up to many of Jesus' words but that doesn't invalidate Jesus or his teachings.
What invalidates Jesus' teachings is that they're impossible to clarify, let alone live up to.
But has that been demonstrated by NV? I'm pretty sure that living up to the standards does not invalidate them. I couldn't live up to the standards of a Navy Seal, that doesn't invalidate them. Impossible to clarify seems more reasonable, but still I have said multiple times that using a single example from the entire gospel doesn't alone prove NV's point. Whatever his point it
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