Posts: 708
Threads: 8
Joined: February 22, 2015
Reputation:
14
RE: Free will
May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
(May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm)dyresand Wrote: god knows everything there for everything is predeterministic meaning X is the path you will follow no matter what.
IF God knows everything, yes, you will do X no matter what. <= X is determined
Could God also know the WAY in which everything happens? In other words, can God know that you will do X FREELY, no matter what?
Quote:god doesn't know everything and limited you can follow X you can follow what ever you want.
IF God doesn't know everything, then, yes, it is possible that X is not determined
Quote:Then again the same thing can be applied to a creator himself. If god knows everything he/she/it is only doing this not because it want's to
said beings actions are already pre determined from the get go.
Maybe so, but then you've simply kicked the can, so to speak. Does pre-determination exclude any pre-determination of the manner in which events will happen? (e.g. contingently, freely, well, poorly, etc.)
Posts: 708
Threads: 8
Joined: February 22, 2015
Reputation:
14
RE: Free will
May 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
(May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why are you commenting upon determinism? I made no claim regarding determinism.
Sorry, I wasn't addressing you. If I were I would have quoted you. My comments were made for the thread in general
Posts: 67305
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Free will
May 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
(This post was last modified: May 21, 2016 at 5:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's difficult to tell..since you don't seem to be addressing me even when you -do- quote me. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Free will
May 21, 2016 at 6:21 pm
(May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Ignorant Wrote: (May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm)dyresand Wrote: god knows everything there for everything is predeterministic meaning X is the path you will follow no matter what.
IF God knows everything, yes, you will do X no matter what. <= X is determined
Could God also know the WAY in which everything happens? In other words, can God know that you will do X FREELY, no matter what?
Quote:god doesn't know everything and limited you can follow X you can follow what ever you want.
IF God doesn't know everything, then, yes, it is possible that X is not determined
Quote:Then again the same thing can be applied to a creator himself. If god knows everything he/she/it is only doing this not because it want's to
said beings actions are already pre determined from the get go.
Maybe so, but then you've simply kicked the can, so to speak. Does pre-determination exclude any pre-determination of the manner in which events will happen? (e.g. contingently, freely, well, poorly, etc.)
So all im asking is god all knowing yes or no that was pretty much the basis of this thread.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 67305
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Free will
May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm
(This post was last modified: May 21, 2016 at 6:48 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Ignorant Wrote: IF God knows everything, yes, you will do X no matter what. <= X is determined
Things I will do no matter what don't sound like an issue of choice, let alone free will.
Quote:Could God also know the WAY in which everything happens? In other words, can God know that you will do X FREELY, no matter what?
It doesn't matter how, and it's obviously only being discussed as an opportunity to assert free will, and get away from the comment directly above as fast as humanly possible.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Free will
May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am
(May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Ignorant Wrote: IF God knows everything, yes, you will do X no matter what. <= X is determined
Things I will do no matter what don't sound like an issue of choice, let alone free will.
Quote:Could God also know the WAY in which everything happens? In other words, can God know that you will do X FREELY, no matter what?
It doesn't matter how, and it's obviously only being discussed as an opportunity to assert free will, and get away from the comment directly above as fast as humanly possible.
Because he want's to have his cake and eat it too. No one really want's to say god is not all knowing.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 708
Threads: 8
Joined: February 22, 2015
Reputation:
14
RE: Free will
May 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
(May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Things I will do no matter what don't sound like an issue of choice, let alone free will.
Sure, unless you consider the distinctions I made about an action and the way in which an action obtains. (e.g necessity vs. contingency)
Quote:It doesn't matter how, and it's obviously only being discussed as an opportunity to assert free will, and get away from the comment directly above as fast as humanly possible.
If you have a certain understanding of freedom and human action, I can understand why you might think that. If you don't think the manner in which an action obtains says anything about its freedom, then how exactly do you tell the difference between a free action and a non-free action?
Posts: 708
Threads: 8
Joined: February 22, 2015
Reputation:
14
RE: Free will
May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm
(May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am)dyresand Wrote: (May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Things I will do no matter what don't sound like an issue of choice, let alone free will.
It doesn't matter how, and it's obviously only being discussed as an opportunity to assert free will, and get away from the comment directly above as fast as humanly possible.
Because he want's to have his cake and eat it too. No one really want's to say god is not all knowing.
Why not? I believe God is all-knowing. I'm trying to respect the fact that this is an atheist forum, and God's existence (much less his attributes) aren't exactly common ground.
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Free will
May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm
(May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm)Ignorant Wrote: (May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am)dyresand Wrote: Because he want's to have his cake and eat it too. No one really want's to say god is not all knowing.
Why not? I believe God is all-knowing. I'm trying to respect the fact that this is an atheist forum, and God's existence (much less his attributes) aren't exactly common ground.
Then we have no freewill a all knowing god violates free will since said being has foreknowledge and created the scenario we are in right now.
The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 708
Threads: 8
Joined: February 22, 2015
Reputation:
14
RE: Free will
May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm
(May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm)dyresand Wrote: Then we have no freewill a all knowing god violates free will since said being has foreknowledge and created the scenario we are in right now.
The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.
Well, I can understand why you might think that, but I am inviting you to consider a more detailed understanding of freedom as well as the relationship between a God who creates and the creation itself. I fully understand that you are not convinced that such a god even exists, so please try to understand that I am happy to speak of god only in a hypothetical manner.
Have you considered the possibility that you are conflating metaphysical necessity with determination?
|
