Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[robvalue]

It was Mystic who brought up the dark forces again, he does that every so often.

[Jackie]

Yeah. He wants us to be confused, or this is the best he can do.

Yea, so that makes humans his lab rats, toys. 

In real life, in the west, if a parent had three kids and allowed them to fight constantly to the point of severe injury or death and Child Protective Services found out, the kids would be taken away and the parent arrested. Yet even liberals of all these three religions cant see or don't want to see the harm religion causes. 

Religion does not create empathy or peace, not in any universal neutral sense. It does locally, but still even then, has the division at best, that all non majorities are pets or house guests who won't be harmed as long as they know their place is behind that majority. But this is what all religions do worldwide, to greater or lesser degrees. 

 All religions point to the ideas of kindness and empathy, but really what humans are doing is using that as excuses to set up social pecking orders. No, it isn't that you can force religion out of existence, but it is way past time humans consider where our behaviors come from as being natural, and not some Marvel Comic battle between a super hero and super villain based on old books.

There is not one religion, not even those of Asia and the Orient, that does not have competing sub sects that have differences of the interpretations of the holy writings or how the umbrella label should progress forward. 

We divide and compete, not because a god exists, or that their is a wise man with all the answers, we do that because that is what evolution in all it's forms does, compete for resources. The good thing about our species is, that when we want to, we can appeal to less tribalism and a more universal understanding that we are the same species.

But right now, currently globally the biggest trouble makers are the big three religions of Abraham, and yes while the east is still stuck far too much in a theocratic past by comparison based on the Hadiths and Quran, it still remains that all three religions claim the same character and all three claim to be daddy's favorite child. Problem is this doesnt stay at a simply debate, it gets to the point of Christians and Jews and Muslims all willing to end the lives of people they have never met and hide behind "self defense". 

The worst part is because of the failure of all three, not as individuals in any, but as a climate, the rest of the world who are not members of any of those, are stuck as hostages on the only home our species has. Nobody is going anywhere, this is the only planet all 7 billion of us have. But unless more humans in all camps face the reality that their is no such thing as a "chosen people", the violence will fester.

[WinterHold]

[robvalue]

I'd say a book is pretty badly written if I have to read all of it before I can understand what the first few pages mean.

[WinterHold]

I'd say a book is pretty badly written if I have to read all of it before I can understand what the first few pages mean.

How so?
The da vinci code is one of the most awesome novels I read in my life. Things always made sense at the end, I stayed clueless for most of the book.

The beginning never makes sense without the end, in so many cases

[robvalue]

Yeah... it was designed that way, to be suspenseful. It's a story. I assume the Quran is meant to be telling you serious things, not deliberately leaving you in the dark for literary effect. That would be very irresponsible considering the gravity of the instructions.

In my opinion, you've gone back and mentally rewritten things to make them add up with other things. But when two parts contradict, you choose the side you like the most. This happens endlessly with the bible. Not quite as much with the Quran, but the contradictions are still there.

[Mystic]

First if one believes in God and Quran, every verse he has to think, Allah [swt] chose these words out of infinite words. But a lot of people instead of looking to see what a verse might be saying, what's it's message, how does it flow with respect to the verses in the Surah, are there similar themes in other Surahs, etc...they just like to belittle it's sanctity and deny it's relevance to us. 

They belittle the words God while claiming they believe in them. 

If we reflect over Quran, everything becomes easy. If we don't reflect, everything it teaches remains ambiguous. It doesn't prove God and his Oneness this way, neither does it prove Prophethood of Mohammad, neither does it prove Wilayah of Ali and his successors this way.

But with reflection the book unravels, and it's wisdom becomes clear. It's intended meaning and light therein shines. 

May God enlighten our hearts and ease our burdens.

[WinterHold]

Yeah... it was designed that way, to be suspenseful. It's a story. I assume the Quran is meant to be telling you serious things, not deliberately leaving you in the dark for literary effect. That would be very irresponsible considering the gravity of the instructions.

In my opinion, you've gone back and mentally rewritten things to make them add up with other things. But when two parts contradict, you choose the side you like the most. This happens endlessly with the bible. Not quite as much with the Quran, but the contradictions are still there.

The Quran is not read based one chronological order; Sura 1 is not the first Sura to be revealed.
Actually to be more precise, verses are revealed in different times. So yeah, I would say it's a pretty unique book.

But it does foretell some tales that carry valuable information; tales which we can conclude stuff from.
With the Quran, where you start is not important, but when you read you should never neglect the context, you actually stop when the context stop. 

It's easy to read indeed. As for the contradictions, I really need a full list of them; because I frankly saw none, though I'm really interested to.


MysticKnight

I'm sorry Mystic -no actually I'm not- but you keep on practicing gymnastics around arguments, I mean this is becoming useless because it looks like I'm wasting time and comments on debating a person who never responds to what I "ACTUALLY WRITE".

I don't care about your scholars. Discuss the Quran, using the Quran, prove or disprove using it & only it, otherwise you have nothing. Sorry. Even atheists in this debate, are keeping Hadiths outside, because I:

1-Don't believe in them and frankly don't trust you or them
2-Ali and his clan mean nothing to me as a Muslim since they're not even mentioned in the Quran 
3-My demons are on holiday currently; Juliana Homicide didn't trigger them yet (2:29)



I'm sorry, but I'm immune to missionary work; either sunni or shia.
I'm only up for constructive discussion

[Jackie]

[robvalue]

What is this now? The Quran isn't even presented in the right order?

I give up God is the worst author ever.