Three Questions for God

[Chad32]

I was afraid of that. Pretty much all versions of the bible portray Yahweh as a pretty awful guy.

 Yes I could see how awful people..would just God awful

Awful people invent awful gods.

[Time Traveler]

Q1: Is God visible in the typical range detectable by human eyes? Yes or no.

1.Yes if you simply Ask Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit as outlined in Luke 11.

See, now that wasn't so difficult to answer, was it? All of your ridiculous "the word 'see' can also mean this and that" tap dancing was completely unnecessary when it was clear I was asking about the visual spectrum.

Q2: If yes, then what is the "right direction" and "correct proximity" to visually detect him?

2. It depends on how hard your heart is to Him.

That's just ludicrous. A "hard heart" has no bearing on things visible in the typical range detectable by human eyes. And you never did answer what the "right direction" is, or the "correct proximity."

If God stood before you right now would you be able to identify Him? What if (like Morgan freedman's Character) He looked like everyone else? How would you identify Him? What if He was not the God of your stereotypes and imaginings? Would you heart be open to change what you think you know of God? Or do you have a singular picture God is "X" and must behave or act a certain way?

I have no preconceived notion of what the God you imagine should look like... he stems from your illusions, not mine. You present all these "what if" scenarios, making it very clear that you aren't sure how your own deity actually looks yourself. But I could be operating under a false assumption, so I'll ask directly... Have you seen God with your own eyes? I'm sure you have followed your own advice to "simply Ask Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit as outlined in Luke 11," haven't you? If so, why can't you tell us exactly what he looks like without all the "what if" bullshit? Is he relatively tall? Short? What color are his eyes? Hair? Skin? Does he appear young or old? Does he even look human? See, I really don't know what your Christian God should look like, but you should if he's literally visible to people like you whose heart is not hardened to him, right? So please give everyone here as thorough a description as you possibly can of how God really appears. Once we have your precise description, we all will know exactly what to look for and there will be no more need for ambiguity, metaphors, or games.

[robvalue]

I always get these dodges whenever I try and get people to define god.

How would you know that you're in gods presence? All I ever get is that you'd "feel" it. You'd "just know". Utter bollocks. Feelings are not a reliable way to learn the truth. They are at best a starting point for investigation.

People are (I reckon) either embarressed to admit that they have no fucking idea what God is; are embarrassed to admit to the image they actually do have of it in their mind; or embarrassed to admit that they couldn't possibly demonstrate its presence even if it was slapping its nob in our face.

And if it's "outside time and space" it's clearly not omnipresent, either. Since some theists take one position and some the other, they can't possibly be talking about the same thing.

I've asked some "omnipresent" pushers how exactly I can tell that God is next to me. How would it be different if he were not? I never get an answer, except more lame appeals to feelings.

[Drich]

See, now that wasn't so difficult to answer, was it? All of your ridiculous "the word 'see' can also mean this and that" tap dancing was completely unnecessary when it was clear I was asking about the visual spectrum.

Ever watch The Karate Kid? Was sanding the floor, or Waxing the cars just pointless busy work, was it the Japanese version of 'tap dancing?' or did the set up the fundamentals and give perspective that D/S would not otherwise be able to master on his own?

What if Mayagi taught Daniel San the things he wanted, in the order he wanted, in the style he wanted, because he was expecting a certain formula of martial arts training from his time at the YMCA Karate Program 'back Home?'

He would have been 'squish just like grape.'

The same is true here, if your looking to see only through the visual spectrum and don't know what to look for then there would be no way for you to know if you've seen the evidence of God or not. Therefore it is necessary to break you of your YMCA training methods and try and get you to wash and wax a few cars first.

That's just ludicrous. A "hard heart" has no bearing on things visible in the typical range detectable by human eyes.

says the douche with a hard heart. As it is entirely possible to see something in the visual spectrum and not understand or even acknowledge it. a Hard heart will not allow you to accept any explanation that does not fit your YMCA trainning.

If Daniel San went to Mr.Mayagi and told him to "pound sand and wash his own cars, because this is not how you learn karate, because I know how you are supposed to learn karate because of my YMCA trainning." It can be said the Daniel san went to mayagi with a hard heart and a closed mind. And because of this Daniel san would have never 'seen' what waxing cars, sanding floors, painting house and painting fence had to do with Karate. Let alone obtain a mastery of it in a very short time.

You are Daniel San. Your YMCA trainning is a scientific approach of obtaining awareness to God that philosophically will not bend or bow to your small box thinking. Rather God has demanded we humble ourselves to Him first, like Daniel San washing and waxing those cars or painting ect.. Once we do, He has promised to lift us up. It is only after we submit to the 'training' that we get the benefit of it. It is then that we can SEE/Find the direction and proximity you are looking for.

And you never did answer what the "right direction" is, or the "correct proximity."

As you are not ready for the answer yet. first we have to move past the idea you are going to poke God with a stick and envoke a repeatable/favorable response that will support a hypothesis you may have.

I have no preconceived notion of what the God you imagine should look like...

That's not true. You assume God is going to meet you on your terms. And be cause he hasn't met you "the bright and shinny center of your own little universe" you assume everyone else is in the very same boat you are in.

he stems from your illusions, not mine. You present all these "what if" scenarios, making it very clear that you aren't sure how your own deity actually looks yourself.

You didn't ask me to describe God/Jesus. I actually did several years ago in another thread concerning my own personal judgement day.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html
He was shorter than I thought he'd be He was bearded, and He was very intimidating, but at the same time very welcoming. What I remember the most was his eyes. Not the color but love they held in them, it was a warm inviting wave, the sense of being Home. At the same time they communicated why I was not welcome into the Father's peace.

Then I saw a messenger of the Holy Spirit He rode in my car and I got to shake his hand.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
He was tall and Big

But again, with a hard heart these experiences would have been forgotten as being a dream and a hichhicker would made a few dozen lucky guesses.

The difference? Content.
In the 'dream' I learned things about Hell I never knew, and even this week just found out about confirming an experience I had 20+ years ago. and the Messenger's message playing out to a tee so far in my life. Everything I learn was one true and biblically supported.

But I could be operating under a false assumption, so I'll ask directly... Have you seen God with your own eyes?

The Son and a Messenger of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure you have followed your own advice to "simply Ask Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit as outlined in Luke 11," haven't you?

Indeed I have.

If so, why can't you tell us exactly what he looks like without all the "what if" bullshit?

Because you assume I haven't and you did not ask what I saw. Only what you could see. and I told you how first to see.

Is he relatively tall? Short?

Christ was shorter than me I'm 5'11" barefoot. The messenger towered over me and had to be 6'5" 250/275lbs.

What color are his eyes?

Jesus didn't really have a color it ts hard to explain, If I was forced to identify what I saw with color I would say an Active blue. Active because There were other things going on in his eyes. (my judgement and final revelation) was kinda preoccupied with taking all of that in.
Messenger was brown/typical black man eyes.

Hair?

little messy/curly and it was shorter than what I thought it would be

Skin?

olive

Does he appear young or old?

older than me at the time/30s maybe

Does he even look human?

except for the eyes yes.

See, I really don't know what your Christian God should look like, but you should if he's literally visible to people like you whose heart is not hardened to him, right?

See that what I mean by preconceived Ideas about God!! d/bag

So please give everyone here as thorough a description as you possibly can of how God really appears. Once we have your precise description, we all will know exactly what to look for and there will be no more need for ambiguity, metaphors, or games.

I promise you, You do not need my description.. Angels are the one radiating light, you might think they are God but they arent. If you fall on your face before them it's ok just get up when they tell you to. When you see Jesus you'll know it's Him because you'll be on your face/knee confessing that He is God all by your self. But by then it maybe too late. it depends on whether or not you are willing to wash and wax a few cars now.

Messengers however can only be identified by content.

[Time Traveler]

@Drich

Wow. Just... wow. Your evidence is a delusional dream/hallucination about Jesus and hell along with an anecdotal story about some kind of psychic homeless angel who magically knew everything about you? When you say, "But again, with a hard heart these experiences would have been forgotten as being a dream and a hichhicker would made a few dozen lucky guesses." It's not the heart that would question these experiences, it would be a rational mind employing critical thinking, something which you clearly abandoned when your heart softened along with your head. Then you draw analogies from a karate movie which has no bearing on whether God is objectively verifiable or visible. I will grant you this, however: Mr. Miyagi and Daniel are just as fictional as your God.  

As for hardened hearts, try this experiment: Stand about 20 yards away from a brick wall that you can actually see. Run full speed. Harden your heart. Pretend the wall is not real with all your might. Don't raise your hands. See if the brick wall vanishes. If it does, that would be evidence that tangible things vanish with a hardened heart. Or, if you actually see short Jesus again while you are actually awake, try the experiment with him. Run straight at him, harden you heart, and see if he magically vanishes before you crash into him.

From what you've described, God/Jesus is so weak, he literally cannot appear to me if my heart is hardened. (I wish my in-laws were that weak.) God/Jesus is so insubstantial as to only appear in dreams or hallucinations. (Conveniently never in any public venue to be caught on camera.) God's presence is so obscure and inconsequential that "if your[sic] looking to see only through the visual spectrum and don't know what to look for then there would be no way for you to know if you've seen the evidence of God or not." (Which is indistinguishable from God not being there at all.)

Clearly, I'm upsetting you since you can't abstain from calling me "douche" or "D-bag". So the last word in this discussion will be yours, if you chose to take it. Although, if you get this short, "active blue-eyed" Jesus on video, let me know. Or, if you run into magic psychic angel homeless dude again and, assuming he isn't also camera shy, post him to YouTube. Until then, I'll assume you have absolutely no empirical evidence to offer whatsoever and leave you to your private delusions where you can wax-on, wax-off with Jesus as much as you desire.

[robvalue]

It's not that surprising that figments of your own imagination would know all about you.

[Drich]

@Drich

Wow. Just... wow. Your evidence is a delusional dream/hallucination about Jesus and hell along with an anecdotal story about some kind of psychic homeless angel who magically knew everything about you?

No.
God's evidence FOR ME what what I relayed to you. But here's the thing. What I received has been offered to everyone, in one form or fashion.
I'm not special.

When you say, "But again, with a hard heart these experiences would have been forgotten as being a dream and a hichhicker would made a few dozen lucky guesses." It's not the heart that would question these experiences, it would be a rational mind employing critical thinking, something which you clearly abandoned when your heart softened along with your head.

What in your little mind makes you think I did not run these experiences through the mill several times? All these things happened to me when I at best had a roman catholic view of Hell, judgement and angels. Non of which is consistent with what I experienced. Then one day I heard that the validity of a dream vision of experience from God has to be consistent with what the bible teaches. And in the case of prophesy their can be no wrong 'guesses.' I have then spent the next 20 years in study not selectively validating what I saw but actively challenging my experience in Hell and watching my life unfold as I was told it would.
Again validation comes through vetting through scripture. Scripture that I knew nothing of when the experience happened.

For me, that was proof. (that and the experience it self does not play in memory as a dream but a tactile experience.)

Then you draw analogies from a karate movie which has no bearing on whether God is objectively verifiable or visible. I will grant you this, however: Mr. Miyagi and Daniel are just as fictional as your God.  

It is a very Small mind that refuses to see what has been simply explained. The analogies demonstrated the humility needed to see and receive the type of 'proof/trainning' God is offering. You are demanding God teach you 'karate' as the YMCA taught Daniel san, and God just dropped a bucket at your feet and told you to wash and wax a bunch of old cars.

If you want what God is offering you will have to do it His way. He will not meet you 1/2 way.

As for hardened hearts, try this experiment: Stand about 20 yards away from a brick wall that you can actually see. Run full speed. Harden your heart. Pretend the wall is not real with all your might. Don't raise your hands. See if the brick wall vanishes. If it does, that would be evidence that tangible things vanish with a hardened heart. Or, if you actually see short Jesus again while you are actually awake, try the experiment with him. Run straight at him, harden you heart, and see if he magically vanishes before you crash into him.

So Sorry sport. I used and defined what a hard heart is already, you can not redefine it so as to invalidate my analogy, that's not how analogies work.

From what you've described, God/Jesus is so weak, he literally cannot appear to me if my heart is hardened.

Not can't.. won't. God does not love everyone the same.

(I wish my in-laws were that weak.) God/Jesus is so insubstantial as to only appear in dreams or hallucinations. (Conveniently never in any public venue to be caught on camera.) God's presence is so obscure and inconsequential that "if your[sic] looking to see only through the visual spectrum and don't know what to look for then there would be no way for you to know if you've seen the evidence of God or not." (Which is indistinguishable from God not being there at all.)

Again, says who? the dbag who only sees a guy washing and waxing a line of cars? that only sees a guy sanding a wood deck? Someone who can only see a guy painting a fence? Again, God is manifest in the world around you, but you are expecting these big grandiose gestures, and have over look the demand for humility he FIRST requires. So to you all you can see is a world without God.

It is not up to me, nor God to provide you with anything but the demand he has made that you first Humble yourself, and allow Him to lift you up.

Clearly, I'm upsetting you since you can't abstain from calling me "douche" or "D-bag".

You are all d-bags to me, calling you that infers no emotion. Too me a douche bag is a term of endearment (one that pisses the proud off.) So there is a double benefit for me to use that word. One it is a fulcrum I can supplant or use to push you off center just alittle (If you think yourself to be everything your not which kinda goes with the definition) and two it allows someone like you the opportunity to demand a panic stop to the conversation if you find your in over your head. granted you want to make me look 'crazy emotional and weak which will work too, but typically the self righteous will use it to call my faith/Christianity into question. Eitherway it's there for your use. use it any way you wish.

So the last word in this discussion will be yours, if you chose to take it.

Indeed I shall I think that word will be: "Depot" Why is it pronounced Depo if it is spelled Depot??? Shouldn't it be pronounced D-Pot? And if we pounced it D-pot do you think Lowes' business would improve?
And if we are going to end on a Sesame Street note I would also like to take the time to say this message is also sponsored by the number 13. (it's my fav number.)

Although, if you get this short, "active blue-eyed" Jesus on video, let me know. Or, if you run into magic psychic angel homeless dude again and, assuming he isn't also camera shy, post him to YouTube. Until then, I'll assume you have absolutely no empirical evidence to offer whatsoever and leave you to your private delusions where you can wax-on, wax-off with Jesus as much as you desire.

This is the douche' kinda thing I was talking about. You wanted to speak to someone who actually knows what Christ looks like. then you flame out on a post ranting about how I do not know the details you ask, then when I actually do, you mock what I have to say. Completely unwilling to discuss the particulars in which I actually validated my experience, never mind even discuss the possibility of having your own 'doubting thomas' encounter. So which is it? Do you want to see God or don't you? Or do you not understand that is how it works? My encounter with God is for me and my life, and He offers this to Everyone on a personal level? That's why we don't 'need a video posted to the youtubes.'

Then, You offer me the last word, and I give one then you go off the rails on your own crazy train trying to pick and unravel something that is not there. (apparently my dangerous emotional state, because I called you a douche bag) Get over yourself sport you are just the newest version of douche bag on the website, Every make and model of douche is present here you are the same vinegar and water packaged in a different bag.

[Drich]

It's not that surprising that figments of your own imagination would know all about you.

..Because I know my own future...

[Nihilist Virus]

1.What did you act on to causally bring about the universe? Did you act on the universe? Then the universe existed before it existed so it could be acted upon and brought into existence... an absurdity. Did you act on nothing? Then nothing was causally effected, which is to say that the universe was created without a cause, so would I be correct in saying that the universe spontaneously popped into existence and that you were present but not participating?

2. How are you omniscient if Gödel proved that there are true/false propositions which can't be proven as true or false?

3. How many pedophile priests do there need to be for you step in? We don't know the figure, but what we know for sure is:

[paulpablo]

is there way to travel fast and reliably through space and reach another planet that humans can realistically live on?

Any chance of making the bible a bit more understandable to clear up confusion about some of the possible contradictions in there?

What are all my physical ailments and why are they caused and what can I do to make them better as best as possible?

Those three just off the top of my head.

If you think I'm cheating and asking more than one question per go I'll just have my third one.  The one where I'm asking about my body.