If faith works how every religion says it works......

[Thor]

But then again, I trust only a few atheists would be unhappy about the fact that some converted L.A gang members are offering to wash our cars instead of stealing them.

Yes, it's quite convenient how many criminals "find religion" in prison, isn't it? Think it has anything to do with trying to get paroled earlier?

Why don't you try to deconvert them and see how many cars they want to wash for 4 bucks they don't get.

This sentence makes no sense to me. What are you trying to say?

[ABierman1986]

Ok RAD, I have a question about the ability of people to live by Christ's word. Except for the Mormons there is no text that details Jesus coming to the new world. What happened to all of the native americans that were not introduced to Christ's word for over 1400 years? Also the same could be asked for all the other areas of the world that didn't hear the word for centuries. Your argument is to live by Jesus sermon on the mount, please explain how this was possible until very recently for the vast majority of the world.

[RAD]

Ok RAD, I have a question about the ability of people to live by Christ's word. Except for the Mormons there is no text that details Jesus coming to the new world. What happened to all of the native americans that were not introduced to Christ's word for over 1400 years? Also the same could be asked for all the other areas of the world that didn't hear the word for centuries. Your argument is to live by Jesus sermon on the mount, please explain how this was possible until very recently for the vast majority of the world.

"It would be better never to have heard the [Word] than to have heard and disobeyed."

Sorry, but I read Peter as saying you are far worse off than anyone who never had a chance to hear it.

For their case to be "better" it means they will have a chance to put on a certain garment Jesus mentions in one of his parables.

On judgement day, I would argue "I'm not sure I ever really heard it. Can I hear it again from you?" It's your best shot. (Sincerely)

[ABierman1986]

"It would be better never to have heard the [Word] than to have heard and disobeyed."

Sorry, but I read Peter as saying you are far worse off than anyone who never had a chance to hear it.

Well, I'm certainly willing to take my chances on that one. So God just picked a place to put down his word and the others get a shot at it later, until the friendly missionaries showed up to finally disperse the word?

[RAD]

If this method was valid, you would then have to test all other religious claims by the same merit, which would not only be a wild goose chase, but also a colossal waste of time and energy.

I said "the claims and promises." Obviously you would pick the one with the greatest promises. Um, like scientists do? Muhammed makes 4-5 fewer major promises than Jesus, promises only an irrational person would turn down. The typical atheist doesn't seem to mind testing 20 philosophies that never took one felon off the streets and made him wash cars, so your argument is hypocritical anyway.

I propose a better solution:

In order to test the claims of Christianity, first define the claims, then produce evidence to support those claims that does not require one to already assume the claims are true.

I never said you had to assume anything. I said you test the claims, like scientists do.

They have to be falsifiable to have any merit.

So go falsify one.

---

But then again, I trust only a few atheists would be unhappy about the fact that some converted L.A gang members are offering to wash our cars instead of stealing them.

Yes, it's quite convenient how many criminals "find religion" in prison, isn't it? Think it has anything to do with trying to get paroled earlier?

In some cases yes. Some no. I am also talking about people not in prison who are led to Jesus, and have tried everything else usually, like stealing cars to feed a habit.

---

Well, I'm certainly willing to take my chances on that one.

Fine but realize that, rationally speaking, if God exists we are boneheads by definition. Agreed?

Do you really want to overlook an obvious truth right now and cross your fingers without a thorough investigation, and testing all Jesus promised? It only takes a major change in attitude, and a few minutes to get your first clue.

So God just picked a place to put down his word and the others get a shot at it later, until the friendly missionaries showed up to finally disperse the word?

You don't need any missionary, and I really don't buy the "we worry about people who never heard the word more than you do" stance.

If God doesn't make everything right one day, I will go to hell with you, be assured. But I have no doubt he will.

---

"Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings."

Indeed. I like that one!

---

"God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?"

A logical fallacy I'm afraid

[tavarish]

I said "the claims and promises." Obviously you would pick the one with the greatest promises. Um, like scientists do? Muhammed makes 4-5 fewer major promises than Jesus, promises only an irrational person would turn down. The typical atheist doesn't seem to mind testing 20 philosophies that never took one felon off the streets and made him wash cars, so your argument is hypocritical anyway.

So you're equating actions of people as the result of a doctrine to judge the truth of that doctrine. By that reasoning, Santa Claus is real because children tend to behave as a result of getting presents on Christmas. Your methodology is ridiculously faulty, as you don't choose a hypothesis with the most claims, you choose the claims you can falsify.

You have to be specific as to what claims and promises you believe are falsifiable, testable, and demonstrable evidence for your God.

They have to be falsifiable to have any merit.

So go falsify one.

Did you read what I said?

Define the claims first, then produce evidence. This is how science and rational discussion work.

In some cases yes. Some no. I am also talking about people not in prison who are led to Jesus, and have tried everything else usually, like stealing cars to feed a habit.

And what of the people led to Allah, Vishnu, or Buddha under those same circumstances?

Fine but realize that, rationally speaking, if God exists we are boneheads by definition. Agreed?

If your God exists, he made us boneheads by definition. Agreed?

Do you really want to overlook an obvious truth right now and cross your fingers without a thorough investigation, and testing all Jesus promised?

1. If it were obvious, there would be no discussion.
2. You have yet to define any testable claims made by Jesus that leads to his divinity.
3. You can't test supernatural claims demonstrably.

It only takes a major change in attitude, and a few minutes to get your first clue.

No, it only takes a presupposition in which you believe the thing you're assessing is true - and that's ridiculous when the very thing you're trying to do is assess its validity.

If God doesn't make everything right one day, I will go to hell with you, be assured. But I have no doubt he will.

Evidence for this?

---

"It would be better never to have heard the [Word] than to have heard and disobeyed."

Sorry, but I read Peter as saying you are far worse off than anyone who never had a chance to hear it.

For their case to be "better" it means they will have a chance to put on a certain garment Jesus mentions in one of his parables.

On judgement day, I would argue "I'm not sure I ever really heard it. Can I hear it again from you?" It's your best shot. (Sincerely)

Woops, we don't get to go to the eternal theme park in which you can be a slave every day for the rest of time. Sucks.

It seems that some people really don't take issue with being made faulty through no fault of their own, commanded clean, and forced to have compassion for the one who made you as such - not only that, but to beg of his forgiveness. That is fucked in the head. The God of the Bible has one hell of an ego on him.

[Minimalist]

the only rational way to test Christianity is to diligently test what Jesus actually said and promised

For once, Rad, you've pulled your head out of your ass and came up with a good idea.

Let's see.

Matthew 16: 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Looks like jesus fucked that one up pretty badly. Some god.

---

You've been reading too much skeptics.org. The founders, being actual thinkers instead people merely posing as thinkers, always separated the Baby from the dirty bathwater.

Madison's collected papers are here:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/madison_papers/


Where are jesus' writings?



Meanwhile,

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine

Paine nailed your bible pretty good.....and again, don't go thinking that you are so superior to the muslims. They suck just as much as you xtians.

[Thor]

Actually now that you mention it, the only rational way to test Christianity is to diligently test what Jesus actually said and promised, and see if it does what he says it will.

Okay, Rad, let's test Christianity!

The Bible tells us Jesus said this:

John 14:12-14

14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14:13-14)
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Here Jesus says that if you believe in him and ask for "anything" in his name, he "will do it".

Let's gather some people who believe in Jesus and have them ask that all the blind people on Earth be given 20/20 eyesight.

If Christianity is true, every blind person should promptly have perfect vision!

Whaddya say? Get some of your Jesus loving buddies and ask Jesus to do this. According to the Bible, he'll do it!

Is that a good enough test?

(Cue the rationalizing why this isn't a "proper test" is 3...2....1....)

[leo-rcc]

I don't like that test.

It is not a double blind experiment, no control group, no explanation on methodology (20 people get cured of blindness on Earth every day by doctors, who is to say that this god is not the driving force behind these doctors?).

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Hah! Get it? Curing blind people... double blind study... ahhhh I crack myself up sometimes.
Of course Jesus is working through doctors. You think they just perform medical miracles all day long because of "science"?
Clearly, blindness is caused by the devil and since all medical equipment is blessed by Jesus, he teams up with Ronald Reagan and when the "doctors" start working on the patient, all the work is actually done via a two-on-one battle between the devil, Reagan, and Jesus. When Jesus and Reagan win, we get a medical miracle, except when doctors perform abortions.