If faith works how every religion says it works......

[AnunZi]

Well then the Gospel writers were lying, which it is up to you to prove, per legal slander/libel rules

Using the bible to prove what was written in the bible is true…. Circular reasoning much?

Do you grasp at all why Jesus didn't do what the devil said he should when he was on the mountain????

Probably not. But then I don’t believe in fairy tales.

[Minimalist]

Well then the Gospel writers were lying, which it is up to you to prove, per legal slander/libel rules

Or, they were making up stories to illustrate certain points....just like all other cultures did. You keep thinking you are so fucking special, Rad. Trust me...you aren't.

[Thor]

You mean "revival leaders" like Peter Popoff and Jimmy Swaggart?

No, more like Whitefield, Wesley, Seymour, etc

I don't have time to list all the evangelicals who have been involved in scandals, so here's a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...t_scandals

Have fun reading!

I've never seen a "miracle".

And?

You want to tell me "miracles" occur. I've never seen one. And, apparently, you can't show me where one has occurred.

And why is it that this deity has never performed a miracle where someone's missing limb was replaced?

Red herring

Not a red herring at all! You want to claim miracles occur. Well, why is it that there are no absolutely, verifiable, undeniable miracles? A limb regenerating after prayer would be hard to ignore!

Not true at all! Go get a dead body and pray to Jesus for that body to come back to life. If life is restored to that body, I'll definitely believe!

The demons believe and tremble.

What "demons"? And how can you possibly know this for a fact?

I asked if you would serve him.

And I answered you.

And you have no proof that "Jesus" ever truly existed.

Well then the Gospel writers were lying, which it is up to you to prove, per legal slander/libel rules

Do you know who wrote the gospels? Because no one else does. And if this is your standard, do you believe the Koran? If not, then you must conclude that the writers of the Koran were lying. And what makes the writers of the Bible any more believable than the writers of the Koran?

Let's look again at what is written: "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also" Says nothing about this comment being restricted to the disciples!

Heh. It's the disciples

Says you.

but it doesn't matter because you don't believe anyway.

Not only do I not believe it, I honestly can't understand how any reasonably intelligent adult can possibly believe it.

It doesn't say "miracles." That is merely a convenient assumption.

It says, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." ANY THING! And you say it is "a convenient assumption" to think this includes miracles? What does "any thing" mean to you?

And this is bullshit! If "Jesus" truly answered prayers we would see the results! Even if people weren't testing him, we would notice that a significantly higher percentage of (for example) cancer patients recovered when they prayed to Jesus as compared to people who didn't pray to Jesus. Nice try, though.

Over 20 years, there was a 40% reduction in the prison population of England and Wales after the revival that began in Wales around 1905.

Are you saying that the people of England and Wales prayed for a reduction in the prison population? Because if not, then this is a non-answer to my post. Read what I wrote again. And this is the best you can do? A reduction in the prison population after a "revival"? Nothing about reductions in infant mortality, cancer rates, accidental deaths, blindness or poverty? Also, how can you know that the reduction in the prison population is connected to the "revival"?

This is the only data collected like that, by an independent entity.

Please cite this "independent entity".

But we have annecdotal testimony coming out the wazoo, like miners taxing themselves ot build libraries.

Source? And what does this prove anyway?

We have you rposter boy Franklim marveling at "the change soon made in our citizens" of Philadelphia. (Another greater work)

What kind of change? And this proves.....?

"Oh, Lord Jesus. We ask humbly in your name that all the blind people on Earth, and those with impaired eyesight, be given 20/20 vision by noon Eastern time on August 13, 2010. We ask for your grace in this humble request. Amen."

That oughta do it! If what you believe is true, I would expect that there will be millions of people rejoicing in the next 24 hours.

1. Works isn't necessarily miracles.

AGAIN.... ANY THING!

2. I would be merely testing God.

HONK! HONK! HONK!

Oops... my rationalization meter just went off.

And how would YOU be "testing God"? YOU would simply be praying for blind people to have their sight restored. Unless, of course, you don't want to pray for such a thing. Which I think would make you kind of a prick.

Do you grasp at all why Jesus didn't do what the devil said he should when he was on the mountain????

Do you grasp at all that the story of Jesus meeting the devil on a mountain is pure poppycock?

I could pretty well guess your answer. I've been doing this awhile, off and on, to see how well I can still answer any question/argument, and to balance a horribly biased, revisionist and illogical approach to fact finding

And you say this without even a hint of irony!

I don't mean this as a cut at all, but you're too self-righteous to be a follower, at the moment.

No, I'm not dimwitted enough to be a follower.

[superstarr]

The gospels wrote their writtings in ways so the people back then could understand. They never meant to teach people a history lesson, but to teach the people moral values and good manners. Too bad biblical literalism isn't very common. In fact, I think that it's less than 10% of the US population.

[Minimalist]

but to teach the people moral values and good manners.

And are an epic fail there too. All that the church gave a crap about was controlling people.

"Keep quiet....do what you're told....you'll get your 'reward' in heaven." ("Meanwhile, we'll just clean up down here.")

Some things never change.

[RAD]

Are you saying that the people of England and Wales prayed for a reduction in the prison population? Because if not, then this is a non-answer to my post. Read what I wrote again. And this is the best you can do? A reduction in the prison population after a "revival"? Nothing about reductions in infant mortality, cancer rates, accidental deaths, blindness or poverty? Also, how can you know that the reduction in the prison population is connected to the "revival"?

Well actually the illegitimate birth rate went down too.

Anecdotally the revival also saw judges wearing white gloves because they had nothing to do, troubled boys wanting to go to church, (which is why the illegitimate birth rate went down probably), miners taxing themselves to build libraries and confusing the pit ponies with their curse-free speech

I guess you never read what W.T. Stead said about the revival and how it changed the whole country of Wales and much of England. I read everything, but perhaps your faith in Lord Self isn't strong enough yet to go read about Christian revivals and how they changed the world, how Christians led the Enlightenment, etc. You know, so you can make a fair, balanced and rational appraisal?

What does "anything" mean to you?

Anything, including revivals larger than Jesus ever saw. So the "greater works" have clearly been done, and Jesus was right. You are simply demanding the works be what you personally define as a greater work, and there is obviously baiting involved. One reason I would never ask for him to heal all the blind people of the world (besides my lack of faith) is that I don't believe it's his will. What would that gain him? People whining he didn't grow out all the missing limbs in the world. Right?

And if this is your standard, do you believe the Koran? If not, then you must conclude that the writers of the Koran were lying.

I give the Koran the same credence I give the New Testament, for the same reasons-- actually the same reasons the agnostic Durant believes the bulk of it. Ever read his rational for believing the Gospels? He basically believes them, and believes the disciples saw Jesus raised, but asks the fair question, was he really dead or could he have swooned?

And I answered you.

No you didn't. You said you would believe but you hedged on serving him. That means doing anything he told his disciples to do. Will you or not?

No, I'm not dimwitted enough to be a follower.

Or, unlike the "dimwitted" disciples, your excuses are just more high-minded and less wise. And of course Jesus doesn't lack for brilliant disciples who figured that out.

---

Using the bible to prove what was written in the bible is true…. Circular reasoning much?

It isn't circular reasoning at all. It's a slander/libel case. The rule is you must prove the people you are denigrating, or accusing of making up stories, did what you claim they did. The burden is on the Jesus myther, not the Christian.

Capish now?

BTW how did fishermen write similies like Shakespeare? (and better IMO)

[AnunZi]

Using the bible to prove what was written in the bible is true…. Circular reasoning much?

It isn't circular reasoning at all. It's a slander/libel case. The rule is you must prove the people you are denigrating, or accusing of making up stories, did what you claim they did. The burden is on the Jesus myther, not the Christian.

You honestly think using the bible to prove the bible is not circular reasoning?

At the end of the day son, I don’t believe your horseshit fairy tales. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

[Edwardo Piet]

It looks like he doesn't understand what circular reasoning is. I know this due to the fact that he has a complete lack of understanding of what circular reasoning is.

[RAD]

It looks like he doesn't understand what circular reasoning is. I know this due to the fact that he has a complete lack of understanding for what circular reasoning is.

I know exactly what it is, and of course atheists use the Bible itself all the time to disprove it, making your arguments doubly silly and hypocritical.

Why don't you do something intelligent like read Durant's rationale for accepting the Gospels, and then refute his reasoning?

[AnunZi]

I know exactly what it is, and of course atheists use the Bible itself all the time to disprove it, making your arguments doubly silly and hypocritical.

Example please.

Why don't you do something intelligent like read Durant's rationale for accepting the Gospels, and then refute his reasoning?

Tell me, do you know what the term “Oxymoron” means?


“Rationale for accepting the Gospels”